Subs for bar band?

Floyd Eye · #1 08-01-2011, 04:58 AM

We have a small ( 1000 watt) Yamaha powered mixer with 12x2 mains and monitors. I have been jacking a bass amp into the mono out on the mixer for the kick drums. At the gig Friday night the sound was terrible. Normally it isn't too bad so I don't really know what happened, but I digress. A friend of ours from another band suggested sticking with the powered mixer and getting a 1000 watt crossover amp for the subs to mic the kicks. He said that the big rack system they have they never use for the bars.

My question is what exactly is a crossover amp and how would I go about hooking it up to only the mics for the kick drums?

JKos · #2 08-01-2011, 05:13 AM

Which Yamaha mixer do you have? Does it have any aux outputs?

Thanks,
John

Floyd Eye · #3 08-01-2011, 05:21 AM

I have the EMX512SC.
EMX512SC, EMX312SC, EMX212S | Mixers | Products | Yamaha Pro Audio

I don't know a lot about PAs and unfortunately I am the one in the band that knows the most about them. We do have another mackie board and we normally go from a couple channels on this Yamaha into the mackie, via the sub1 and sub2 XLR inputs ( I think that's what they're called.) Then hook the mics up to the mackie.

Maybe it would be better to go back to plugging the vocal mics directly into the powered Yamaha and using the Mackie board with a separate power amp to mic the kick drums?

MNAirHead · #4 08-01-2011, 05:29 AM

How do you EQ the room.

Before buying gear, there may be some procedural things to fix.

Tim

Floyd Eye · #5 08-01-2011, 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

How do you EQ the room.

Before buying gear, there may be some procedural things to fix.

Tim

Oh I'm sure there are. Like I said, I know about the minimum you can get by with about PA's. What do you mean "EQ the room"? I normally have the para set flat and turn the mics up to just below feedback level.

T-Bird · #6 08-01-2011, 05:35 AM

Hi.

I have no idea what a crossover amp would be, but a normal amp should be all right with a passive sub. You can use a cross-over, but the channel EQ should provide enough tonal shaping for running just a single kick through.

I use either mono out, right out (or left, I always run mono), group out or aux out to drive cabs(amps) that shouldn't be in the house mix. The only requirement is an independent level control.

Regards
Sam

Barisaxman · #7 08-01-2011, 05:36 AM

Sounds to me like your using the Mackie (what model?) as your mixing surface, and using the left/right outs into the Yamaha to provide power to your speakers. My suggestion would be to looking into a powered sub (I'm a Yorkville fan) that you could feed via an aux send from your Mackie. That way you could only send kick drum (and bass, keys, whatever) to the sub and keep the vocal mics, etc. out of the sub. No point in sending frequencies to it you want filtered anyway. This will eliminate the need for a crossover in a small setup like this.

PS, there's no such thing as a "crossover amp".

There a crossover, which is used to split line-level signal to separate sources (eg, highs to your Yamaha, lows to a sub). An amp is an amp is an amp. If you don't get a powered sub, you will need a separate power amp to power whatever sub you acquire.

Ric5 · #8 08-01-2011, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Floyd Eye

We have a small ( 1000 watt) Yamaha powered mixer with 12x2 mains and monitors. I have been jacking a bass amp into the mono out on the mixer for the kick drums. At the gig Friday night the sound was terrible. Normally it isn't too bad so I don't really know what happened, but I digress. A friend of ours from another band suggested sticking with the powered mixer and getting a 1000 watt crossover amp for the subs to mic the kicks. He said that the big rack system they have they never use for the bars.

My question is what exactly is a crossover amp and how would I go about hooking it up to only the mics for the kick drums?

You need to learn the basics of pa systems. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than me will chime in here. Also do some research. Go see what other bands are using.

Floyd Eye · #9 08-01-2011, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barisaxman

Sounds to me like your using the Mackie (what model?) as your mixing surface, and using the left/right outs into the Yamaha to provide power to your speakers. My suggestion would be to looking into a powered sub (I'm a Yorkville fan) that you could feed via an aux send from your Mackie. That way you could only send kick drum (and bass, keys, whatever) to the sub and keep the vocal mics, etc. out of the sub. No point in sending frequencies to it you want filtered anyway. This will eliminate the need for a crossover in a small setup like this.

PS, there's no such thing as a "crossover amp".

There a crossover, which is used to split line-level signal to separate sources (eg, highs to your Yamaha, lows to a sub). An amp is an amp is an amp. If you don't get a powered sub, you will need a separate power amp to power whatever sub you acquire.

I'm not sure what model the Mackie is, but it is an older one. That sounds about right as far as what we are doing though. i.e. the crossover amp, the guy I talked to says he has a Peavey 2500 power amp ( I could find no such thing via google) with a built in crossover.

Floyd Eye · #10 08-01-2011, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ric5

You need to learn the basics of pa systems.

Definitely. Which sucks. So much for just being the bass player.

Any suggestions on where to go for a crash course? Preferably one that a moron can understand.

JKos · #11 08-01-2011, 05:42 AM

I agree with Barisaxman.

Are you using the Mackie for mixing? Are you only using the Yamaha for it's power amps? One to the mains and one for the monitors?

I would agree with the suggestion of a decent powered sub fed from an aux send on the Mackie.

But, please tell us more about how you connect everything so we can try to help with what you have.

- John

JKos · #12 08-01-2011, 05:45 AM

> Any suggestions on where to go for a crash course?

Do a google search for "basics pa setup" and you'll get plenty of hits including videos. Here's one, for example: Scott's PA System Tutorial

- John

Floyd Eye · #13 08-01-2011, 05:47 AM

Yes. We are using the old Mackie for mixing. There are XLRs coming out of the first 2 channels on the Yamaha and going into ports which are marked SUB1 and SUB2 on the Mackie. I really don't know why we are doing this other than that's the way the PA our drummer had when we hooked up with him was. Before we always just used the powered mixer. I really see no advantage of jacking into the Mackie. There are enough channels on the Yamaha for all the mics we use. That is unless we start micing all the drums or micing my bass cabs or the guitar cabs or something, which is not something we plan on doing in the smaller clubs we normally play.

I effing confuse the hell out of myself thinking about all this. lol

Floyd Eye · #14 08-01-2011, 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JKos

> Any suggestions on where to go for a crash course?

Do a google search for "basics pa setup" and you'll get plenty of hits including videos. Here's one, for example: Scott's PA System Tutorial

- John

Thank You.

Barisaxman · #15 08-01-2011, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Floyd Eye

I'm not sure what model the Mackie is, but it is an older one. That sounds about right as far as what we are doing though. i.e. the crossover amp, the guy I talked to says he has a Peavey 2500 power amp ( I could find no such thing via google) with a built in crossover.

Sounds about right...in your case, I would KISS (keep it simple st.....) and go the powered sub route, and aux-feed the sub.

Only other question...how are you driving your wedges/montors? Are you just linking them off the mains or are you using auxes on the Mackie to create mixes? This may impact your ability to aux-feed your sub. It doesn't sound like you are, but just want to make sure.

I would suggest looking into a Yorkville LS720P or two. If you want to go all out, grab an LS801P. For bar gigs, one will outperform two smaller subs easily. By the time you buy a power amp/passive sub, you could pay for a decent powered sub, so you might as well go powered and keep things nice and easy. When sub shopping, remember: you get what you pay for!!! If you buy cheap subs, you will have more bad sound, and probably spend a lot of time replacing inadequate drivers as you continually melt the voice coils or otherwise destroy drivers.

JKos · #16 08-01-2011, 05:57 AM

Let's try to work you through this. But, first, we need a few more details.

What are you currently micing? Vocals only?
Are you using seperate FOH and monitor mixes or just one mix?
What type of bass amp have you been using to hook up to the mixer?
Can you get us the model of the Mackie?

- John

Floyd Eye · #17 08-01-2011, 06:01 AM

Well, that's another issue. We have 2 12" mains, 2 12" monitors and 2 10" monitors. Basically, I run the Yamaha in main/monitor mode and we hook half of the speakers up to the main output and half up to the monitor output ( we have 4 monitors and 2 mains so this seemed like a way to get as much power from the Yamaha as I can). Unfortunately it makes keeping the main mix and the monitor mix separate impossible, so it's something I want to change. Even with 2 monitors behind the drummer he never seems to be able to hear them very well.

Floyd Eye · #18 08-01-2011, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JKos

Let's try to work you through this. But, first, we need a few more details.

What are you currently micing? Vocals only?
Are you using seperate FOH and monitor mixes or just one mix?
What type of bass amp have you been using to hook up to the mixer?
Can you get us the model of the Mackie?

- John

A few of those questions I just addressed, regarding FOH and monitr mixes.

I am emailing my drummer right now to see if he can remember the model of the mixer.

I am using an older Peavey Mark IV hooked to a Peavey 2x15 cab.

Floyd Eye · #19 08-01-2011, 06:13 AM

Shows what I know, the mixer is not a Mackie it is an Audio centron
Ac-16.

Floyd Eye · #20 08-01-2011, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JKos

Let's try to work you through this. But, first, we need a few more details.

What are you currently micing? Vocals only?
Are you using seperate FOH and monitor mixes or just one mix?
What type of bass amp have you been using to hook up to the mixer?
Can you get us the model of the Mackie?

- John

Yes, vocals only.