Utility of a single sub

[drpepper]

We're a rock cover band (3 piece) playing smallish bars <150-200 capacity type places. PA is a Yamaha EMX5000 and JBL 15" 2-way (on stands) and has been vocals only.

We're looking to fill out the sound a little bit and set up a mix. The plan is to start with micing the kick drum and running bass DI to the board. Feel that out and then add a drum overhead and mic the guitar.

I was hoping to find some experiences with adding a single sub, at least as a first step up.

For starters, where is a single sub best placed? I'm thinking behind the PA stand on the guitar side or maybe guitar side between the drums and amp.

[Zooberwerx]

We place our's dead-center directly between the L & R mains (on tripods).

Riis

[steve_rolfeca]

We're using QSC HPR12i's (self-powered 12 and a horn) on sticks, with the matching QSC powered sub.

We keep the volume control backed off to about 75%, and it never seems strained, even when we're pushing the top boxes to the point that they're starting to sound a little ragged. We've never tried it, but I suspect that it might have enough juice to keep up with quad HPR's.

Low C's and D's sound great with my 5-string, and the sense of mass on the kick is impressive. The crossover seems excellent- nothing hollow or flubby going on in the low mids.

The sub doesn't seem to demonstrate any particular sensitivity in terms of placement. We've had it centered, off to one side, close to a wall, and standing in free space- it's all good.

All in all, an excellent purchase.

[drpepper]

Originally Posted by Zooberwerx

We place our's dead-center directly between the L & R mains (on tripods).

Riis

Thanks. Interesting, so are you usually up off of the floor? In my shallow experience band riser/"stages" at bars have been 6" up. Half of the time, we're on the floor. Seem like in the middle would be in the way-ish.

What's your set-up consist of?

I take it from your answer that a single sub get the job done for your needs?

[drpepper]

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

The sub doesn't seem to demonstrate any particular sensitivity in terms of placement. We've had it centered, off to one side, close to a wall, and standing in free space- it's all good.

All in all, an excellent purchase.

Cool! Excellent input. Thank you.

What do you have your crossover point set at?

[Zooberwerx]

Originally Posted by drpepper

Thanks. Interesting, so are you usually up off of the floor? In my shallow experience band riser/"stages" at bars have been 6" up. Half of the time, we're on the floor. Seem like in the middle would be in the way-ish.

What's your set-up consist of?

I take it from your answer that a single sub get the job done for your needs?

Stage, floor...it varies. The two 18" subs sit clustered directly in front of our center-stage keyboardist. All our enclosures, for that fact, sit at least 12" -24" forward of our vocal mikes. Your sub enclosure requirements may differ but I'd go with a dual 15" given your description. Carvin offers a nice affordable selection of all types.

Set-up: Soundcraft mixer > dbx DriveRack > 4 QSC power amps (3 for mains & subs, 1 for monitors), 2 Carvin LS 1503 mains, 2 Yorkville 18" budget subs.

Riis

[drpepper]

Originally Posted by Zooberwerx

The two 18" subs sit clustered directly in front of our center-stage keyboardist.

Thanks again and thanks for the suggestion.

Fact is I have a sample unit of the new Mackie that just hit resellers this week, the HD1501. We'll give it a go tomorrow night. If it adds, we can get a great deal on it, maybe get a second one. If not, we'll probably wait a while before getting into any PA upgrades.

[Zooberwerx]

Originally Posted by drpepper

Thanks again and thanks for the suggestion.

Fact is I have a sample unit of the new Mackie that just hit resellers this week, the HD1501. We'll give it a go tomorrow night. If it adds, we can get a great deal on it, maybe get a second one. If not, we'll probably wait a while before getting into any PA upgrades.

Oh, you're gonna like the results. If you're getting a great deal, that's even better.

As asked earlier, what are you using as a crossover?

Riis

[MrDOS]

Originally Posted by drpepper

Thanks. Interesting, so are you usually up off of the floor? In my shallow experience band riser/"stages" at bars have been 6" up. Half of the time, we're on the floor. Seem like in the middle would be in the way-ish.

What's your set-up consist of?

I take it from your answer that a single sub get the job done for your needs?

Hey T-40 man. Where are you playing? Chances are I've played there back in the day.
I run one single-18" Turbosound sub at small places here. Since I set up the bass on the Hi-Hat side (stage left), I usually put the singe sub onthe stage right side, next to the mains (which is on a tripod).

We get compliments all the time on our sound

[drpepper]

Originally Posted by Zooberwerx

Oh, you're gonna like the results. If you're getting a great deal, that's even better.

As asked earlier, what are you using as a crossover?

Riis

I hope so. When I look at it, I have to wonder if I'm expecting too much. We'll see.

Actually that was me asking steve_rolfeca where he had the crossover point set earlier.

Our mixer has a crossover on the output that appears to be variable from 80 to 120Hz. Looking at he manual, it might be 80, 100, or 120 with notches on the dial (I don't have it here). I know almost nothing about the sub at this point. I have some reading to do. It's powered and also has a crossover, which may be fixed at 100Hz. If so, I would assume I should set the mixer at 100 also.

This is it http://www.mackie.com/products/hd1501/

[drpepper]

Originally Posted by MrDOS

Hey T-40 man. Where are you playing? Chances are I've played there back in the day.
I run one single-18" Turbosound sub at small places here. Since I set up the bass on the Hi-Hat side (stage left), I usually put the singe sub onthe stage right side, next to the mains (which is on a tripod).

We get compliments all the time on our sound

Hey, what's up? I went to Bill's over the weekend. Tried to snap a picture on the cell phone for you, but I didn't get much.

Haha, we're not playing in Columbia. We're at a place called Big Bats, down by the Bay Bridge.

I don't think any of the places that had bands "back in the day" are still around, Allview Inn, Sneakers, Cheng Du Lounge...all gone.

[drpepper]

Eh, I suppose I can hijack my own thread

Here's the new building



Here's the old building, with the famous Les Paul. Turns out they're not using both. You can't tell from the picture, but the newer building is pretty big.



Oh, and I looked...amazingly, the place across the street is still there. It's called Guitar Exchange.

[walterw]

[/hijack]
one of my bands plays little clubs and we use a small PA featuring one yorkville 700P powered sub.

i use 2 1x15 LDS cabs for my bass, so it doesn't need to go in the PA at all. therefore, the sub is mostly just a "kick drum amp".

i usually put my bass stack on one side of the stage and the sub on the other side, so that the two forms of low end happening are sort of balanced out front.

[MrDOS]

Thanks for the pix! When I have a clear head, I'll list the places we used to play, and see if any of them still exist!
Back to the hijack; here's a pic from my last visit to Baltimore:

[drpepper]

Originally Posted by MrDOS

Thanks for the pix! When I have a clear head, I'll list the places we used to play, and see if any of them still exist!
Back to the hijack; here's a pic from my last visit to Baltimore:

What year? When I went about a year ago, I thought they were using both buildings. They're completely out of that building now...except for the Les Paul.

That'll be interesting to see where you played.

[drpepper]

Originally Posted by walterw

[/hijack]
one of my bands plays little clubs and we use a small PA featuring one yorkville 700P powered sub.

i use 2 1x15 LDS cabs for my bass, so it doesn't need to go in the PA at all. therefore, the sub is mostly just a "kick drum amp".

i usually put my bass stack on one side of the stage and the sub on the other side, so that the two forms of low end happening are sort of balanced out front.

Cool. Thanks for the input.

Yeah, we don't "need" to run anything through the PA for loudness. Hoping for a "blended" sound.

[TimmyP]

Sub should not be on stage owing to its vibrating the stage, the drums, the mics,..... Talk about droning drums.....

Sub should not be behind the tops - it already is behind them time-wise in most systems, which reduces impact in a way that turning them up does not fully compensate for. You don't want to make this even worse.

If the bass is going through the sub, the bass rig and the sub should not be on opposite sides, as this will cause uneven coverage of the bass (look up "power alley". They should be as close together as possible (and there may still be response problems).

Sub should be either less than 2 feet from or at least 8 feet from any boundary (floor, wall, ceiling), otherwise there will be a notch ("hole") in the frequency response that cannot be corrected with EQ.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by TimmyP

Sub should be either less than 2 feet from or at least 8 feet from any boundary (floor, wall, ceiling), otherwise there will be a notch ("hole") in the frequency response that cannot be corrected with EQ.

this one is pretty doggone important, trust me.

[drpepper]

Thanks for the input

[dave_bass5]

A bit late to the party but i just wanted ot add my thoughts.
We use a small vocal PA as well (1 x Peavey Hi Sys 1x15 each side) and recently got a Peavey self powered sub. Its the cheap 400watt one.

After a lot of walking around the rooms as sound checks it seems to me that if we are on the floor, then putting it under the speaker on the guitar side works best. It seems to balence out the low feqs. I know they are supposed to be omni directional but on the dance floor it sounded better having some sort of low freq coming from both sides.

On stages we put it dead centre if we can and normally put a monitor on top of it.