Wall of Sound?

[TonyFranklinFan]

Not sure if I asked this before, but I have a Leader/Keyboard player who insists on the wall of sound everywhere like the 60's and doesn't want floor monitors or in-ear nothing. He was in a musical coma since 1973 so..u know..how do I convince him that that setup is not all that good, or if it is workable how can we adjust and set it up in small venues/bars to make it sound good. Keys are always too loud, and his lead vocals are always too muffled and lotta feedback.

[konodl18]

Wall of sound... As in behind you?

[TonyFranklinFan]

Yes...all amps and cabs behind the band more or less.

[konodl18]

PA cabinets behind the band just plain old stinks in my mind. Why fight the feedback all night? I've seen some bands do it locally but it requires alot of work on vocal mics, gain, EQ and I think even when they get it working without feedback the sound suffers. For me, the fastest way to make a band look amature is to allow feedback to ring out all night, anything you can do to eliminate feedback is going to make the shows go off much easier and make you look much more professional.

I'm shuddering just thinking about that dog whistle squeeling all night!

[TonyFranklinFan]

So how and where should the PA itself be, vs. cabs and mains?

[JimmyM]

PA should be in front of the band, subs on floor either in the middle of the stage or to one side if there's no room in front.

[walterw]

is this loon also going to do that very complex polarity-flipped dual-vocal mic thing the dead used to cancel the sound of the mains blasting right into the vocal mics?

[TonyFranklinFan]

I don't think he's that smart...lol!

[T-Bird]

Hi.

Been there done that and all... and I'm a fan.

In certain situations it works, and works very well. On the tiniest of clubs and bars, that's how I prefer the setup to be.


The downside of the wall of sound is the enormus requirements and dicipline it requires from the band balance-wise, and especially from the vocalist(s).

The vocalist(s) have to have perfect mic technique in order to avoid feedback and also have big pipes, whisperers and mumblers can forget about it.

The PA has to be top notch, with delicate channel strip and main EQ's. Compressors and gates help a mile too.

The engineer has to be top notch also, whether it's someone on-stage or off-stage.



In Your case, if the keys are always drowning everybody else and the "leader" has an improper mic technique, as it sounds from Your post, I'd forget it. The "normal" way is so much easier for everyone involved.

One advantage/disadvantage (depending of how You look at it ) is that the wall of sound can get very loud, very fast if the audience needs to feel the music too. That can be a problem if You value your hearing. It'll be an advantage if You want to feel the music, but don't want to make the audience deaf.

He'll porobably push it and nag and whine about it to no end, so give it a try. If it's anywhere possible, try to find an "unimportant" gig to try it out though, I have a feeling that You guys can't pull it off succesfully.

Regards
Sam

[TonyFranklinFan]

Sam Thanks for your input, we've done this over and over and he won't listen. He says "oh it sounds good from here" and "No one ever complains" {of course that's all his family that is at the gig anyway}. My biggest gripe is keys/upper keys for horns being WAY too loud and flapping speakers, and voice being too muddy without being able to hear the words.

[Steve]

Welcome to the first level of musician's hell.
The leader who is clueless, wrong and stubborn.


I've been there. If you are lucky and willing to go to war, you may be able to move him a little but, it will be from that point forward, a constant battle to keep him right. It's not like you're going to be able to prove it to him once and he'll see the error of his ways and change. He'll always want to go back to his way regardless. It's his comfort zone. It's like trying to teach a dog to not lick his b**ls. Your success will be hard fought and short term at best.

Like it, lump it or leave.


IMHO YMMV

[two fingers]

Originally Posted by Steve

Welcome to the first level of musician's hell.
The leader who is clueless, wrong and stubborn.


I've been there. If you are lucky and willing to go to war, you may be able to move him a little but, it will be from that point forward, a constant battle to keep him right. It's not like you're going to be able to prove it to him once and he'll see the error of his ways and change. He'll always want to go back to his way regardless. It's his comfort zone. It's like trying to teach a dog to not lick his b**ls. Your success will be hard fought and short term at best.

Like it, lump it or leave.


IMHO YMMV

This. Unless you out rank him, it's totally not worth the trouble.

[Vanceman]

Originally Posted by TonyFranklinFan

Sam Thanks for your input, we've done this over and over and he won't listen. He says "oh it sounds good from here" and "No one ever complains" {of course that's all his family that is at the gig anyway}. My biggest gripe is keys/upper keys for horns being WAY too loud and flapping speakers, and voice being too muddy without being able to hear the words.

To say that no one is complaining is not true. Actually, you are complaining! And your opinion carries a lot more weight that the audiance. If he doesn't think your opinion has any value, you don't want to be in that band anyway.

[TonyFranklinFan]

Problem is, he's like one of my best friends...yeah yeah..never do the band thing with friends, but I became friends after we got in the band together. He told me tonight when I brought this up, that it is when the PA speakers are too close to the vocal mic when it squeels...is that true?

[Zooberwerx]

Originally Posted by TonyFranklinFan

Sam Thanks for your input, we've done this over and over and he won't listen. He says "oh it sounds good from here" and "No one ever complains" {of course that's all his family that is at the gig anyway}. My biggest gripe is keys/upper keys for horns being WAY too loud and flapping speakers, and voice being too muddy without being able to hear the words.

I bet the venues just love you guys!

Been there, done that. Leader / frontman has $$$ for PA equipment but won't take the time to learn how the system really works.

Riis

[AltGrendel]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

PA should be in front of the band, subs on floor either in the middle of the stage or to one side if there's no room in front.

Do you mean subs or monitors?

Originally Posted by TonyFranklinFan

Problem is, he's like one of my best friends...yeah yeah..never do the band thing with friends, but I became friends after we got in the band together. He told me tonight when I brought this up, that it is when the PA speakers are too close to the vocal mic when it squeels...is that true?

With a good PA properly set up, you should be able to walk anywhere on the stage and not get feedback. And if you have monitors in front of you, you should be able to point the mike directly into the monitor without getting feedback. It's all in the set up and that's what sound checks are for.

But it takes time.

[walterw]

Originally Posted by TonyFranklinFan

He told me tonight when I brought this up, that it is when the PA speakers are too close to the vocal mic when it squeels...is that true?

look up "microphone pickup pattern" and do some reading. It's when the speakers are aimed into the front of the mic that you have the problem. the whole point of speakers and monitors being in front of the band is that they'll be in back of the microphones, where they won't put more sound into the mics.

[thombo]

there is a reason people stopped doing the Wall of Sound thing, even the Dead.

[El Beardo]

Tell him you'll do it if he wants to transport, unload, set up and then pack it up at the end of the night. All joking aside I think you should try and persuade him to at least try a different setup. The setup JimmyP described is good imo.

[thombo]

for what it's worth, the wall of sound approach is popular among bands that only have monitors. how large of a PA setup does your band have?