What's wrong with bass nowadays?

[DavePlaysBass]

Originally Posted by fokof

Doing that is the best proof that you don't give a **** about your band's sound, all you care is yourself.

It would be a very immature , and inexperienced reaction.

Actually, when you have a sound guy that does not understand how to mix the bass properly, you are doing your band a favor by pushing your levels higher. It is very disappointing to work your tail off with a group of people and have a sound guy with an attitude screw the whole thing up because he has no musical ear. Not to say that happens all the time but it has happened to me and I have learned how to make the most out of a bad situation.

[BucShot]

Mixing bass live can be a daunting task due to stage roar and (sorry guys) sometimes lack of technique. Guitars are no bargain either but the good news is not all rooms are a mixing nightmare.

I've played bass for years and always try to get a tight punchy, up front in your face distinguishable sound. This is not possible with the frustrated guitar player types. They tend to strum with a pick (usually 3 or 4 strings at a time) and sound more like an underwater African percussion instrument than a bass. That's the technique factor.

Room acoustics are also a major factor. Generally the bigger the room the more pronounced the problem simply based on the wide scope of hard surfaces to deal with. But stage volume or stage roar is by far the hardest to compensate for and it doesn't matter how much PA system you have.

Once the roar has been created on stage there's not much a soundman can do to fix it. He can add to it but he can't take it away. It all starts with tonal quality, technique and manageable stage volume. Give the soundman something to work with and this problem should take care of itself.

[fokof]

Originally Posted by DavePlaysBass

Actually, when you have a sound guy that does not understand how to mix the bass properly, you are doing your band a favor by pushing your levels higher. It is very disappointing to work your tail off with a group of people and have a sound guy with an attitude screw the whole thing up because he has no musical ear. Not to say that happens all the time but it has happened to me and I have learned how to make the most out of a bad situation.

You have a good point.
But IMHO & IME , it is impossible to know what it sounds like in front WHILE on stage , so I have to rely on the soundude.
You can go to the FOH in the soundcheck , but you and I know that when a room fills up , it's a complete different story.

With the type of gigs I do , it would look VERY stupid to go in front while the show is on. ( and I'm alergic to wireless)

[mrkode]

Alright so.... had the chance to enquire a bit more on this and did some gigs since and think i should change the thread's title to "what's wrong with rooms nowadays" lol

Turns out, the room is reknowned to be a bass trap. Even the drummer had to have the bass up to a point where it was distorting in order to hear it in his monitor mix.

And, just last night, I was invited to the CD launch performance in one of our main venue. One of the major and best selling act in town so big production, no door knobs on stage and behind the board. Yet, no bass was audible for the entire performance. The floor toms were very muddy and the overheads a bit subdued. Voice was stellar, hh, snare and bd as well (though the bass drum was triggered) and keys were audible only in soft passages. Upon discussing it with fellow musicians who were present, the venue is also known to be muddy and a bass trap. So considering the people wroking on that prod. we probably had the summum of what a band can sound like in that room. Bass player was direct and everyone through in-ears monitoring so not a problem of stage leaking sound.

After the performance, my drummer friend who was on the show came down and asked about the sound and he wasn't surprised.

So... should we turn the problem to room designers / owners so they can improve upon it?

Probably not since 95% of the general public doesn't give a sh** about how the room sounds as long as they can hear and see their idol.

So, in some cases, we just have to roll with it, take in the energy from the audience and having fun on stage with our fellow bandmates.

[KPAX]

The fact is there are a LOT of retarted sound guys with no ear for music. When I see an indoor system that is 70% subs, I know we have a problem. So many sound guys are sub crazy.
These guys have only a vague notion of what a bass guitar actually sounds like and they usually don't bother to listen to the players amp to hear what the player's sound is. These retards just want a direct from the bass that they can put into their compressor and turn into blurry mud.
These guys seem to think that since the drums might have 7 or 8 mics, the drums must be 8 times more important than everything else and they crank the drums, burying the band.
Look, a poor to mediocre sound guy can (and will) WRECK a performance. When my band brought in our sound man (a dude with an EAR) it made a HUGE difference. Find a good sound man and INSIST that he run sound. Fortunately, our guy has a good rep around Minneapolis so in-house dudes usually defer to him.

Originally Posted by mrkode

Or what's wrong with sound guys?

In the past latest shows I did in the last couple years, I've stumbled from time to time on sound guys asking me to turn down and being told after the show by musicians in the audience that the bass was not loud enough etc... etc...

I thought to myself, hmmm maybe there's something wrong with my sound or I'm just being unlucky when it comes to the sound men i'm working with.

But last night I was invited by a collegue drummer of mine who's playing with a well established artist to come and see the show. Got there picked up the tickets and walked to my seat only to find it was 5 feet in front of 4 subwoofers. I was glad I had brought my earplugs even if it's only pop and no heavy rock or metal.

So, the show begins and I notice that the only single thing that's coming out of the subs is the bass drum. No bass whatsoever. I could hear the voice and the guitars really well from the rest of the PA, the snare was a bit subdued to my taste and the bass... well the bass was lost in the mix almost inaudible. At first I thought, maybe that's because i'm too close to the subs and maybe he mixed it in the rest of the PA so I walked towards the back of the venue ( around 500 seats) but still almost no bass in the mix. You could hear it but very far in the mix and it would come out only when the bass player would do fills in the upper register.

We're talking well oiled team here, professional musicians and techs. So this was not a mistake it was a choice. But why? What is wrong with having some bottom???

Why is bass is more and more pushed on recordings but pulled out during live shows??

Okay, I admit, this must not be the norm as it is one show and my experiences with this while on stage are only a handful. But still... I can't understand it.

[mjolnir]

Sound guys hate me.

It's not because I'm uncooperative or rude, I try to be as accommodating as possible, but because I have an 810 rig. Or maybe because I play an instrument they don't understand, I dunno... Even when I played a 115 combo I was buried at nearly every gig.

There are only two occasions I can think of in the last year where I was truly happy with the overall mix, and ironically enough one was done by a last minute replacement who technically didn't have permission to run the board that night, and the other was some no-name just grabbing a couple bucks working sound at a strip club.

[toobalicious]

Originally Posted by KPAX

The fact is there are a LOT of retarted sound guys with no ear for music. When I see an indoor system that is 70% subs, I know we have a problem. So many sound guys are sub crazy.
These guys have only a vague notion of what a bass guitar actually sounds like and they usually don't bother to listen to the players amp to hear what the player's sound is. These retards just want a direct from the bass that they can put into their compressor and turn into blurry mud.
These guys seem to think that since the drums might have 7 or 8 mics, the drums must be 8 times more important than everything else and they crank the drums, burying the band.
Look, a poor to mediocre sound guy can (and will) WRECK a performance. When my band brought in our sound man (a dude with an EAR) it made a HUGE difference. Find a good sound man and INSIST that he run sound. Fortunately, our guy has a good rep around Minneapolis so in-house dudes usually defer to him.

retardation aside........

we must lead parallel lives. the sub-woofer-crazy part. the drums destroying the mix part. the lack of consideration for a players' desired sound or even his playing style (bass>DI>lots of improper eq, and perhaps mooshed with compression or even other effects.... sound familiar?). and not the least, the "this guy has good rep so he must be right" part.

sigh.

they have still generally got us by the balls.

[KPAX]

Yeah, just as there are bad bands, there are bad sound guys. Ultimately, the room/club suffers because bands don't sound as good there. If the owners are smart, they're checking out the competition, listening and correlating it with the number of customers.
A sound guy is AS important as any band member (maybe more) because he can make the band sound good or bad.
Our sound guy is good. He's got an ear and has been on stage - he knows what it's like to be a player and a singer.
There's been times when my stage volume is high and he's said if it's not too much of a buzz-kill could you turn down a bit and I'll bring you up in the system. Other times he's come around backstage and said your amp tone is great, I'd like to hear more of it from the stage - can you turn up? He's not looking to be in control, he's looking to make the band sound optimal - and he knows that players need their sound at a certain level to get in the zone.

Originally Posted by toobalicious

retardation aside........

we must lead parallel lives. the sub-woofer-crazy part. the drums destroying the mix part. the lack of consideration for a players' desired sound or even his playing style (bass>DI>lots of improper eq, and perhaps mooshed with compression or even other effects.... sound familiar?). and not the least, the "this guy has good rep so he must be right" part.

sigh.

they have still generally got us by the balls.

[LCMBassist]

Originally Posted by JTE

How many people, bassists included, think that because we play low notes, that's all there is to the sound? And the prevalence of artificial sounding low end (Hip-Hop blasing from subs in sub-compact car, a 500 seat club with eight 18" subs, smiley-face EQ on everything, etc.) contributes to people not having a clue what bass sounds like. Another factor is that durms are so powerful now that there's no sonic space for bass. That's why you can't hear bassists in most metal bands- the low end of the guitars and the kick drum eat up that end of the spectrum, and the snare, cymbals, and whining guitar with the shrieking vocals eats up the rest of it...

jte

Part of that is due to the fact many metal bassists scoop their mids out.....we all know what happens when you do that! Bye bye to being heard.

[tomvelsor]

sometimes sound guys mix the bass real low so it cant be heard distinctly, but if he hit the mute button on the bass channel, it wouldent sound as good. it just adds a nicer sound to the whole mix, even though you cant directly hear it..

thats not a GOOD idea, but its a common one.

i remember when i saw aretha franklin at radio city a couple months ago, this was the case. you could not distinctly hear a single bass note...but the guitars were MORE than loud enough..all 3 of them...err..

[Marley's Ghost]

It's called Kick Drum Syndrome. Fear it.

Every time we have sound level issues in my band, I always get pointed at first. Until I defend myself and point out the real culprits (Drums, Guitars).

[jaywa]

Originally Posted by tomvelsor

i remember when i saw aretha franklin at radio city a couple months ago, this was the case. you could not distinctly hear a single bass note...but the guitars were MORE than loud enough..all 3 of them...err..

An Aretha Franklin show and you couldn't hear the bass? Blasphemy! Heresy! I bet if Aretha knew that was going on she would have been none too pleased.

[jaywa]

Originally Posted by Marley's Ghost

Every time we have sound level issues in my band, I always get pointed at first. Until I defend myself and point out the real culprits (Drums, Guitars).

It's not just sound level issues the bassist gets blamed for first. It can be buzzing, shorting, feedback, etc. Even when the bassist has the best gear of anyone in the band the assumption always seems to be it's his/her s**t messing things up.

[bassplayertom77]

I have had soundmen who played guitar/drums, and soundmen who played bass.

The difference was frightening. Not to paint this with a broad stroke, but I think bass players have more of a respect for the "big picture" when it comes to sound. Same with recording.

[toobalicious]

Originally Posted by bassplayertom77

I have had soundmen who played guitar/drums, and soundmen who played bass.

The difference was frightening. Not to paint this with a broad stroke, but I think bass players have more of a respect for the "big picture" when it comes to sound. Same with recording.

gotta say, i tend to agree with that statement. maybe hard to use that blanket statement with accuracy, but still pretty true in my personal experience. ESPECIALLY recording.

[L-A]

Reading this thread makes me love my band.

[fokof]

Originally Posted by mrkode

Alright so.... had the chance to enquire a bit more on this and did some gigs since and think i should change the thread's title to "what's wrong with rooms nowadays" lol

Turns out, the room is reknowned to be a bass trap. Even the drummer had to have the bass up to a point where it was distorting in order to hear it in his monitor mix.

So... should we turn the problem to room designers / owners so they can improve upon it?

Owners ?
No . the cost of improving that type of room is phenomenal.

Room designers ?
It's all there.......

PS ; They should have keep their activity at "le cabaret"

[Reckless]

"It's WHO you know, not WHAT you know. - Mark"

Isn't that the truth. I think that applies in most situations. I have yet to get a job that isn't by a friend.