Whole World Gone Bassy?

[Russell L]

Er...I'm just ranting. Played two gigs this weekend with two different bands. I had trouble getting my bass rig to sound like I want both nights. One night was in a strange new room, but the other was in a venue I'm familiar with. Both bands are mine, so no unfamiliar territory there.

Anyway, my rant is about all the low frequencies they like to put on everything. I was in the mains both nights and had my amp running flat, as I usually do. But I found myself adding some bottom when I usually don't have to. The first night the bass drum was too deep and loud. Plus, there was too much bottom on the keys, guitar, and even the vocals. Second night was similar with the other band.

When I practice with my blues buddies it's not like that. The two guitars have a nice thin sound, and the drums, too. I'm really the bass in that band. What a difference it makes for enjoying playing.

What is it with folks wanting everything so bassy? I get tired of complaining about it.

[Tupac]

I blame dubstep. And you're right, low sounds seem to be the cool thing now.

[mpdd]

i was just talking to my friends about that last night, some clubs are muddy, some are grungy, and you have proposed some are also too bassy, interesting

[Marko5657]

I’ve read complaints about that for the past couple years, even high-level acts being mixed with far more low end than is appropriate.

And it didn’t read to me to be just someone’s opinion when they note that certain instruments, even the vocals got overridden in the mix.

Maybe the sound guys these days are x DJs or something…

[ggunn]

Originally Posted by Marko5657

I’ve read complaints about that for the past couple years, even high-level acts being mixed with far more low end than is appropriate.

And it didn’t read to me to be just someone’s opinion when they note that certain instruments, even the vocals got overridden in the mix.

Maybe the sound guys these days are x DJs or something…

Don't get me wrong; I'm a bass player and love me some bottom. That said, however, what some sound guys and musicians don't seem to get is that there is not a lot of room down there for multiple instruments. For example, up in the midrange, two notes that are a semitone apart can coexist, like when making a major 7th chord. In the lower registers, such an interval is pure mud. Even more conventional intervals mostly sound like crap. Loading up the low end with guitar subharmonics and left hand stuff from the keyboardist muddies up the mix immensely. The kick drum needs to be down there, but it needs to be of short duration. When the kick drum sounds like DOOOOOOM DOOOOOOM DOOOOOOM, the bassist might as well go have a beer.

[MNAirHead]

gear can now handle it... and sub harmonic synthesizers are affordable.

Blame it on bad car stereos... we're now trained to hear an inaudible thump

[N.F.A.]

I had this talk with a soundman at a local big jazz concert last summer. He told me that this is the way people are being trained by the big studio schools.

[Russell L]

Originally Posted by N.F.A.

I had this talk with a soundman at a local big jazz concert last summer. He told me that this is the way people are being trained by the big studio schools.

Now, ain't that the pits? Yeah, I had the sound man tell me the other night that the kick drum should be deeper than the bass. I think that's the modern take on it, but considering how much old music we play it's not appropriate. And yes, the kick did sound like DOOOOM, DOOOOM, DOOOM, as did the toms, only higher pitched (they even rang with a note to them).

Seems like unless you're a bass player no one else notices what's going on down in the lows. I remember one night when I had to play by sight only because I couldn't hear anything I played. The other night I was playing through my Markbass 121H combo with a Traveler 151P, all at 500w, and couldn't hear it very well. There's just something wrong with that picture.

[MNAirHead]

It is prudent fora gigging bassist to hear the ultra lows

I actually prefer this as it opens up mor space for primary vocals and instruments. It also creates a different type of volume/pressure perception

[Russell L]

What I'm having to do is run more mids in order to hear myself. Now, when I jam with my blues guys, though, I can actually sound like bass. Argh, considering that the two gigging bands play some stuff I'm not into, it should always be that I can at least get into my own zone and enjoy the pleasures of my equipment and technique, no matter what the song. But, when I can't even do that it's a bummer. So, what I end up doing is bearing through just for a paycheck. (One band isn't that bad about it, though, and I do have a good time in it).

Anyway, I see that it isn't just me. Thanks for chiming in, folks. Maybe we can change the world (?).

[mpdd]

when i saw 400 blows on saturday night i thought that the boom was a digital loop, but now i think it was the kick drum, it was cool for what they do, but it wouldn't have worked in a more traditional rock band imo

[konodl18]

I think lots of bars and clubs get boomy around 100hz real easily when an engineer tries to build a deep or bass heavy mix. It just consumes the mix and washes out a lot of the guitar and vocals. What causes it? Room resonance, crappy subs, good subs that are not eq'd well, lots of things probably.

On a side note, I set my rig up outside for a block party last weekend, and OMG! I was like a little kid. It sounded fantastic, like I always wish it sounded in the clubs and bars. It was loud and clear, crisp, punchy, not boomy. I guess the low ceilings and walls and odd shapes of the rooms we play in really have a negative effect on the sound of my rig.

Derek

Could be true for a lot of venues?

[jaywa]

Sound engineers are a big part of the problem but there are also way too many guitarists dialing up way more bottom end on their mic'd stacks than any soundman can overcome. I call it the Metallica Syndrome. Same deal with keyboardists.

End result, people complaining there's "too much bass" in the mix (with bass guitar being turned down in response), when in fact it's other instruments causing the low-end roar.

The soundman who understands frequency slotting, knows how to apply it and has the nads to tell guitards to roll off their bass, is worth his weight in gold.

[Bardley]

That's why, as a soundman, I use a high pass filter on just about everything but the bass, kick, low toms, and any synth or something that needs the bottom. I low cut guitars, vocals, and everything else and it leads to a much more balanced sound. In a typical band the kick and the bass should carry the low end, not the guitars.

[teleharmonium]

Originally Posted by Russell L

What is it with folks wanting everything so bassy? I get tired of complaining about it.

I feel your pain.

The inmates are running the asylum, is what it is. People like the sound they are used to when they turn up both the bass and treble knobs on their home stereo (probably with a subwoofer and/or crappy ported speaker cabinets with very nonlinear resonant lots to boot).

And that - way too loud, muddy, and shrill - is what they have come to think is good, so live sound guys are giving it to them.

[PurpleDrank]

Originally Posted by teleharmonium

I feel your pain.

The inmates are running the asylum, is what it is. People like the sound they are used to when they turn up both the bass and treble knobs on their home stereo (probably with a subwoofer and/or crappy ported speaker cabinets with very nonlinear resonant lots to boot).

And that - way too loud, muddy, and shrill - is what they have come to think is good, so live sound guys are giving it to them.

I think it's partly that and partly that the goals of the venues have shifted. In my area, almost all the venues, with a few shining exceptions, are dedicated nightclubs all but a couple of nights a week when they put on live acts. They definitely striving to reproduce the aforementioned iPod-type, car stereo, dance sound.

They have these huge, open dancefloor layouts and several gigawatts of power to the multiple subs. Those places are almost always going to be shrill up top and be boomy and muddy when you are using a bass and not a synth. The vocals almost always get lost too.

Only the best sound guys (usually brought with them by the national acts) get any kind of good sound in those places.

[jaywa]

Originally Posted by Bardley

In a typical band the kick and the bass should carry the low end, not the guitars.

Thank you sir!

[Tractorr]

I used to do live sound at a bar that had a some sort of small mixer I forget the brand. It had a three band eq (fixed lows, sweepable mids, fixed highs). I remember it was the first night and the owner/current sound guy was like "okay let me see what you can do on the opening band." I started to work up a mix as the played their first song to an empty bar. Before the end of the first song he said what are you doing and turned the low knob almost all the way up on the bass, kick, and all the toms. Then proceeded to turn the mids all the way up on the snare and guitar. Finally, the highs all the way up on the overheads. Basically, it turned into a complete and painful mess. After the set the owner berated me for not knowing these basic "techniques" of mixing. Needless to say I hate that job and was not to upset when I was let go a few weeks later.

The point of the story is there are a lot of people who think they know about sound and know nothing. What is even stranger is that sometime these people own and operate clubs that have live music 7 nights a week.

[Russell L]

>>>The point of the story is there are a lot of people who think they know about sound and know nothing.<<<

Amen, amen, and amen!

[Bardley]

Originally Posted by Russell L

>>>The point of the story is there are a lot of people who think they know about sound and know nothing.<<<

Amen, amen, and amen!

Preach!