why does the room change the sound?

[Bjazzman]

I can sound so good in practice with everyone going at normal volume but as soon as I move my gear to the gig I fight the room.

no matter how much I eq it will never be the same

why is that and what can I do about that?

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Originally Posted by Bjazzman

what can I do about that?

Practice outside and only play outdoor gigs. Problem solved

[RickenBoogie]

Worry about your stage sound, and let the soundman worry about the rest.

[Bjazzman]

that's just it. I can't get my stage sound to sound right. it might sound fine as far as I know out in the audience

would investing in a better mixer or amp change this?

[JimmyM]

Nope. Rooms have their own character, and sometimes it helps your amp, sometimes it doesn't.

What you need to do is get either a very long cable or a wireless, and hop down in the FOH and walk around a little bit to see how it sounds in the house during soundcheck. Sometimes you can be very surprised about what you hear. Either way, I wouldn't lose much sleep over it. Happens to everyone.

[allexcosta]

Originally Posted by Bjazzman

no matter how much I eq it will never be the same.

Although 2 rooms will NEVER sound the same proper EQ'ing can do wonders. Educate your ear to identify the frequencies that are feedbacking and learn how to cut them properly. I find it's very easy to EQ when you have YOUR sound in your head. Everything comes natural. Stay away from preset EQs, like the smiling face or all flat. In some rooms you may have 80hz in +2, while in other rooms it will be a -6. Adding a 31 band Eq to your rig may be the solution in your case. Also, make sure that your guitarrist or keyboardist aren't EQ'ing too low on their instruments because you don't really want a broad range of frequencies overlapping. Sometimes some gating and limiting/compressing on the bass and floor drums help to clean things up a little in a room with poor acoustics...

Just my 0.02...

[Jeff Scott]

Originally Posted by Bjazzman

I can sound so good in practice with everyone going at normal volume but as soon as I move my gear to the gig I fight the room.

no matter how much I eq it will never be the same

why is that and what can I do about that?

There isn't enough space on this server to fully describe what's going on!

[R Baer]

Think of it this way. What is a speaker cabinet? It's a speaker in a box, right? What happens everytime you play indoors? Once agin, you've put a speaker in a box. Unfortunately, no one has designed that "box" to work with your "speaker". My guess is that you just need to become more familiar with the effect that your EQs (bass, amp, pic-up balance, technique) can have on your sound in various rooms. Once you really get a good understanding of the frequencies that make up your sound, it will become much easier to to hear you sound and make the adjustments you need to make your sound be happening for you.

The number one biggest mistake I see on a regular basis is for the entire band to overpower the room. All too often everyone hits the stage and cranks up the volume to ridiculous levels. If you have PA support, you only need to be loud enough to hear your playing onstage. Let the soundman worry about the room. Playing at a lower volume also lets you focus on the dynamics of your playing and the music much better.

[EricF]

When you hear ANYTHING, you are not only hearing sound directly from the source, but also reflected sound from the surfaces (walls, floor, ceiling, furniture, etc.) in the room. The distance between the surfaces, the position of the sound source in the room, the surface material (wood, metal, fabric, booze bottles...), the number of people, etc., etc... will all effect how the sound is reflected back to your ears - or, in the case of an outdoor space, not reflected. Rooms will also have certain frequencies that are hyped and others that are nullified due to how the length of the soundwaves interact with the room.

[MNAirHead]

sound gets absorbed, bounced around.. low tones move different than high..

I got sick of this got smaller amps and started going Direct.. then having bass through monitors and mains.

Much of the New amps I've tried lately are not good for a band mix.. the old gear seemed as if it blended better (no I'm not a vintage snob - it's just a characteristic).

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

sound gets absorbed, bounced around.. low tones move different than high..

I got sick of this got smaller amps and started going Direct.. then having bass through monitors and mains.

Much of the New amps I've tried lately are not good for a band mix.. the old gear seemed as if it blended better (no I'm not a vintage snob - it's just a characteristic).

Totally 100% agree. We've gotten too worried about 40 hz or better specs and forgot about mixing in with a band sound. It's no coincidence the SVT 810 was a hugely popular cab, and it's no coincidence that it's lost a lot of its charm over the past 8 years when they started to get more low end out of it with low-voiced speakers.

[JazznFunk]

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

sound gets absorbed, bounced around.. low tones move different than high..

I got sick of this got smaller amps and started going Direct.. then having bass through monitors and mains.

Much of the New amps I've tried lately are not good for a band mix.. the old gear seemed as if it blended better (no I'm not a vintage snob - it's just a characteristic).

You speak my language... I have never been much of a 'big rig' kind of guy, though I've never had much of a use for a huge rig anyway. Small rigs augmented with monitors make life easier for the soundmen and for the onstage mix. While I use SWR and Eden stuff, I don't utilize the 'hi-fi' nature of it for band settings. Horns off... treble attenuated, massaging the mids. They sound great FULL RANGE for solo stuff, but not in a band setting. That's why I have augmented the sound I get with those heads/amps with tube pre's and the much-vaunted VT Bass. The hi-fi sound and clean power is there as the platform if I want it, but it's nice to warm it up a bit if the situation calls for it.

[derrico1]

What to do about variable stage sound depends on how the house is getting your bass.

Is the house is getting your post-eq sound (either through the amp's DI set to post, through a cab mic feeding the PA, or by virtue of your cranked rig)? If so, Jimmy's got it: the rig typically sounds different (sometimes radically different) on stage and in the room. If you have to adjust the stage-rig-feeds-house situation, the house sound should take priority. Get out into the room during soundcheck and adjust the amp according to what the house hears. The house eq response will change a bit once the punters start filling the room, but this will give you your best chance.

If you have a pre-eq feed to the house, you can treat your stage rig as a pure stage monitor, and adjust eq for your monitoring needs without screwing up the house sound. Whether the problem is stage design or the mains & subs overpowering the stage, you can make it easier to dial in what you need to hear by getting a cab up by your ears and adjusting volume to suit.

[silky smoove]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Totally 100% agree. We've gotten too worried about 40 hz or better specs and forgot about mixing in with a band sound.

+1

Some of us just play Schroeders and don't worry about that goofy 40hz and lower territory.

That sounds insulting, but its really just that those super low frequencies don't do much other than fight the PA, the rest of your band and rob your head/power amp of a good chunk of power.

[wysiwyg248]

Bjazzman,
Your opinion is very subjective.
You believe you sound good during practice and bad live? Have a friend attend both and notice the sound and what are you looking for.
Remember: You are on stage, for that you have monitors. What it counts is how it sounds to your audience.
Have someone that knows what you are looking for monitor your sound, then make corrections based on his/her opinion.

[MNAirHead]

Originally Posted by JazznFunk

You speak my language... I have never been much of a 'big rig' kind of guy, though I've never had much of a use for a huge rig anyway. Small rigs augmented with monitors make life easier for the soundmen and for the onstage mix. While I use SWR and Eden stuff, I don't utilize the 'hi-fi' nature of it for band settings. Horns off... treble attenuated, massaging the mids. They sound great FULL RANGE for solo stuff, but not in a band setting. That's why I have augmented the sound I get with those heads/amps with tube pre's and the much-vaunted VT Bass. The hi-fi sound and clean power is there as the platform if I want it, but it's nice to warm it up a bit if the situation calls for it.

I'd venture to say that I probably have one of the largest rigs on TB collecting dust. Long dumb story - played it for about 5 years.

The challenge is that many of us watch folks playing a stadium oooggling and ahhhwing over their setup..

Few of us then remember that they have sound guys.. are commonly going direct.. and the size of their room is almost like being out doors.

I had the toughest time adjusting to "reality sized" rooms.. even my 400 watt biamp set to #2 would blow some out.. some couldn't hear.

I tried the stuff that everyone on here ooohs and ahhs about.. sounded great wanking in my livingroom.. gave the sound guys headaches..

Went back to what the sound guys had always said "your stage stuff (stupid big rig) only breaks our back and makes you feel macho".. they'd take a DI signal directly from the my bass.. then get paid to "blend it"

Just recently (I've got a thread somewhere) where I went through and tested about 12 amps, 20 basses, different strings etc. The room we were playing was built for accapella choirs.

I thew in the towel.. got a headphone monitor ($100) a slightly better used DI box ($25) and some higher quality earphones ($40)..

My rackmount stuff with custom cabinets now collects dust.. as does my big rig.

Recently have been bringing this to casinos and other pro type venues - the sound guys have been breathing a sigh of relief as they're not fighting mixing my amp (now bascially use a powered monitor or earphones) and stage sound.

I paid a replacement to play one of my gigs so I could run my own sound.. learned a ton.. cost me about $500.. hopefuly this will make me more valueable in the session world.

Tim

[MNAirHead]

Originally Posted by silky smoove

+1

Some of us just play Schroeders and don't worry about that goofy 40hz and lower territory.

That sounds insulting, but its really just that those super low frequencies don't do much other than fight the PA, the rest of your band and rob your head/power amp of a good chunk of power.

Had one.. great in my room... the sound guy could not control it.

I'd get one again if smaller non pa venues.

[MNAirHead]

I'll move on..

On the Peavey site there are some VERY good white papers on the subject.. I'm sure JBL and some of the other places will have something similar.

I'd also consider looking at snob botique white papers... things like "Dr Z" guitard amps.. they wank on about how the speakers are made by albino children and other details like that.

T.

[Bjazzman]

my guitarist and I both have the same problem. and I would say we are one of the quiter bands out there and also don't get much louder at the gig than in practice

I don't think i'll get another eq since our set up time takes so long I could see this taking forever before I felt comfortable

great suggestions and I will just have to listen where the feedback is to make eq cuts on my carbine amp.

I am running a bass a keyboard a vibraphone and my sax through my mixer to my pedalboard to my amp where it's di'd to the board

[JazznFunk]

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

Went back to what the sound guys had always said "your stage stuff (stupid big rig) only breaks our back and makes you feel macho".. they'd take a DI signal directly from the my bass.. then get paid to "blend it"

Just recently (I've got a thread somewhere) where I went through and tested about 12 amps, 20 basses, different strings etc. The room we were playing was built for accapella choirs.

I thew in the towel.. got a headphone monitor ($100) a slightly better used DI box ($25) and some higher quality earphones ($40)..

Tim

Spot-on, Tim. I would say that 99% of the time for festivals and multi-act bills, I never bring a rig. For non-drummer gigs in a small club, I rarely bring a rig. I have my tube preamp, my favorite DI box, and occasionally my VT Bass as well, and that's it for my 'rig' onstage. This works great most of the time and makes the sound crew love you forever. If they're savvy, they will EQ your wedge to help you hear yourself as best as possible. Some people don't get that you're using the monitor as your 'bass amp' onstage and don't give you enough or have it EQ'ed really badly. It's those instances that make me miss my rig, but I can deal with it for a short set. For regular work where I know I need a rig, I have an assortment of (all SWR) 2x10 cabs, a 1x15 cab, and my vintage Goliath 4x10 that I pick from depending on the band and the music. Paired with a moderately powered SWR or Eden head, that gets the job done. I've never needed anything larger than that.