Why NOT run bass through PA?

[Buck Snelson]

I play a stock Fender USA Jazz and use a SWR Workingman 12 as a practice amp. When my band gigs (only 2-3 times a year) I have been using the amp as a monitor and using a DI to put the bass in the PA mains and floor monitors. I am getting some pressure from my band mates to buy a bigger, more powerful bass rig so as to not have to run the bass through the PA. Their argument is something as follows: the bass going through the PA muddies up and kills the sound of the guitars and vocals in the house system because the bass frequencies are "slow" compared to the others and the PA speakers "can't keep up". They say the only time the bass should be run through the PA is if there is a dedicated sub in the PA system, with an appropriate crossover to keep the bass out of the mains and monitors. Is any of this true? If not, what other reasons might there be for not putting the bass in the house PA? Just about every concert I go to has the bass going through the PA, even if there is a monster on-stage rig. Now I would love to have a better bass rig, but given that money is tight and we don't gig often, I'm having a hard time justifying buying new gear. I'd be inclined to get a bigger rig if some of you with pertinent knowledge on this matter can set me straight on issues related to running the bass through the PA. Thanks. Buck

[Stumbo]

How does your band actually sound with your bass in the PA mix. Instead of speaking theoretically, all's you have to do is listen FOH. Is it distorting? Bass frequencies arent' slower or faster. That's been debunked on TB a long time ago.

What's your PA consist of?

If your bass is distorting the PA then it probably can't handle it. Just turn the bass down on the channel it runs through to see if that will get you enough volume. Unless you have lots of watts and headroom, it will probably distort your pa when you get enough volume for the bass.

How about renting a bigger bass rig for the 2-3 times a year you gig.

Question: Why do you only gig 2-3 times a year?

Also, do the other people in the band have more money invested in their rigs than you do?

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Buck Snelson

I play a stock Fender USA Jazz and use a SWR Workingman 12 as a practice amp. When my band gigs (only 2-3 times a year) I have been using the amp as a monitor and using a DI to put the bass in the PA mains and floor monitors. I am getting some pressure from my band mates to buy a bigger, more powerful bass rig so as to not have to run the bass through the PA. Their argument is something as follows: the bass going through the PA muddies up and kills the sound of the guitars and vocals in the house system because the bass frequencies are "slow" compared to the others and the PA speakers "can't keep up". They say the only time the bass should be run through the PA is if there is a dedicated sub in the PA system, with an appropriate crossover to keep the bass out of the mains and monitors. Is any of this true? If not, what other reasons might there be for not putting the bass in the house PA? Just about every concert I go to has the bass going through the PA, even if there is a monster on-stage rig. Now I would love to have a better bass rig, but given that money is tight and we don't gig often, I'm having a hard time justifying buying new gear. I'd be inclined to get a bigger rig if some of you with pertinent knowledge on this matter can set me straight on issues related to running the bass through the PA. Thanks. Buck

Bass freqs are no faster or slower than any, so that's wrong. However, if they don't have a sub, or at least a full-range PA with hefty woofers that can take it, it's probably a good idea not to run the bass in the PA, or at least run it not so loud.

[Zappstorius]

Buck, IMO that's a bunch of hogwash! When you go to see national acts, EVERYTHING is run through the PA.

When we gig, everything is run (drums, guitar, bass, keys & vox) through the PA usually; unless it's a small room in which the keys & vox run through the PA only (keyboardist has no amp).

The biggest question that I would for you is can you hear yourself onstage & in your practice space? Can the other members hear you & themselves?

What size of amps are your bandmates using? It must be on the small side as well

[bassman1185]

Your bandmates are morons.

Even if you DO have subs, you won't run the bass exclusively through the subs; a lot of your tone will come through the tops as well.

[SteveC]

We always run everything through the PA. It isn't for pure volume. It has to do with mix, blend and presence. I have a little combo on stage as a monnitor for myself, and I suppose it bleeds out a little to the FOH.

No matter what size venue we play, we set up the same. Drums get miced at every gig. Keys, vox, guitar, bass, it all goes through at every gig. That's how you get a nice mix. It doesn't mean the kick drum is thumping at every gig, but it is "there" in the mix.

There's also the issue of stage volume. Don't even get me started on that. You sound like you have your head in the right place. I gave up the big rig and have never looked back. I wish I would have done it sooner. I would have saved thousands of dollars. You have a nice little set up. Nice bass and a combo amp that is plenty for reasonable rehearsals and even small gigs. Let the PA do the work. That's what it's there to do.

Your band mates are not as smart as they want you to believe. Sounds to me like you have the brains in the band. Good luck.

[Deacon_Blues]

I used to do the "mic/DI everything" thing but nowadays I'm running as little as possible through the PA. On the small/medium sized gigs I play, the amps the guitarist and I have are big and loud enough and sound great. On the small/medium sized gigs I've mixed, I've sometimes had to shut some channels off completely because the sound coming from the stage was loud enough.

I have a pretty large rig, 500 watts into six 10" speakers, and there's only been a few times I've had to put the bass into the PA, and never indoors. I guess I could use a smaller amp and run through the PA more often, but I like to have a big rig close to me when I play, it gives me an extra kick.

One of the best things with the small PA is that we've never got a volume complaint with it. Used to get it all the time before when we had everything mic'd. And I think we're as loud on stage as ever before. And the audience can hear the vocals.


+1 to your band members not being very smart...

[zac2944]

Don't run bass through the PA? The bass frequencies are too slow?

That might be why your band only gigs a few times a year: the geniuses you're playing with.

When you listen to a CD through a stereo you hear the bass through the same speakers as everything else right? And it still sounds fine, right? Get my point?

If you are truly having an issue with the bass making other instruments and vocals sound bad through the PA, you ought to look into how to properly run a PA and mix a live band. Make sure the guitar doesn't have too much low end going through the PA; trim it off with EQ. Trim off some of the very low end of the bass so the kick drum has a little space, and roll off the high end to so you don't interfere with the guitar and vocals. This is the sort of stuff a pro FOH sound guy does to make a live mix "work". This is often why they want you to give them a pre-eq DI signal instead of micing your cab. A lot of the adjustments they have to make are not intuitive, and often amateur musicians (and some pros too) try to work things in the opposite way.

That said, the SWR 12 combo you have might be a bit small depending on your situation. I get by with a nice 210 and 500W GK amp for smaller bar gigs, but even that rig is too small for some gigs. The only time I use stage monitors for bass is at very large venues or very large stages. I typically use my amp as a monitor, but FOH is still though the mains.

Hope that give you something to think about.

[lemur821]

Originally Posted by Buck Snelson

They say the only time the bass should be run through the PA is if there is a dedicated sub in the PA system, with an appropriate crossover to keep the bass out of the mains and monitors. Is any of this true?E

There's a kernel of truth in the first half. A PA without subs may not be able to adequately produce your bass, and pushing it too hard in an attempt to make it do so can mess up everything else going through it. But there's no reason to ever run through subs alone. That would be like turning down all but the bass knob in your amp's EQ section—just plain stupid. As for the monitors, that depends on whether you and your bandmates can hear you well enough without them.

[GregShadoan]

I would say it depends on the PA you are using, and what its preformance envolpe (of the PA) is. As I have said many times, no two situations are the same. If it is a small system then I would vote as little as possible through the PA. In the correct situation, yes, bass can be run soley from stage. If "THE" PA you are using can handle drums, then it should be alright for bass. Do you have your own sound engineer? What are their observations? Can adding a speaker cab to your rig make everyone happy? And while it is true that bass does in fact end up in the mid-hi packs in a 3-4 way PA, without the benefit of a system with subs, you might find the observations of your band mates may in fact be the case.

[maconbass]

We play 150-180 shows a year and the bass is ALWAYS ran through the PA in addition to my stage rig. They are doing something wrong.

[lyndonb]

We always run the bass through the PA. It's run through a power amp to an 18" sub we recently started using. Basically the kick drum and the bass run through the sub and there is a built in crossover.

I think the key is getting a good stage/PA(sub) balance. If needed you could run a little of the upper mids/highs through the main PA speakers too if your cabinets are not producing enough.

I'm all for it, I run an XLR direct out into the board, no mics, nice and easy too. We play a wide range of room sizes and the subwoofer seems to be the key. We are considering getting a second 18" sub as well.

[varunkapahi]

every gig i play, bass goes through the PA. every gig i go, the bass goes through the pa.
if the pa not really a pos and the sound guy knows his thing then its never an issue

[fokof]

That's a funny concept ; the speed of sound is slower for bass frequencies !!!!!
That's good one , should be "humour & joke" thread.


Running all through the PA will give you a better overall sound if the acoustic of the room and the PA & soundman are normal.

[nysbob]

There are many variables here, so it's hard to assess your needs. My rule of thumb -#1 I want the band to sound "full" on stage with zero sound reinforcement, so that precludes using a tiny amp.

We play a lot of venues where we bring the system - it's not huge by any stretch and is designed primarily for the vocal range, so it's defintiely NOT a good idea for bass to be in there.

If I were playing exclusively in venues that had a decent system, I could see going with a smaller rig, but I always revert back to rule #1. The reality of it is, in most of the gin joints I play at, my stage sound is adequate for throwing some bottom into the room and reinforcement isn't really necessary, but without knowing all the particulars of your situation, it's hard to make a call.

[lindseyp]

Originally Posted by Buck Snelson

... I am getting some pressure from my band mates to buy a bigger, more powerful bass rig so as to not have to run the bass through the PA. Their argument is something as follows: the bass going through the PA muddies up and kills the sound of the guitars and vocals in the house system because the bass frequencies are "slow" compared to the others and the PA speakers "can't keep up". They say the only time the bass should be run through the PA is if there is a dedicated sub in the PA system, with an appropriate crossover to keep the bass out of the mains and monitors. ... Buck

No offense to your bandmates, (big hairy) BUT, as a sound guy who also plays bass I can infer your bandmates have no clue how your band sounds through the PA since they're on the stage, not in the audience when they're playing. Our lead musician has been telling me to turn up my bass each Sunday but I've been skeptical because I know how it can sound much louder in the house than on the stage. Sure enough, I asked the soundguy YESTERDAY how I sounded and he said I was too loud this past Sunday and it was the first time he felt that way. I had found the point of diminishing returns. Good thing I always write down my settings. We agreed to set up a monitor from my system specifically for the lead musician and free up some lines so I can go direct into the PA. Everyone wins.

[spector29]

haha sounds like a new BBE marketing concept:


This speeds up the bass frequencies so they're in time with everything else.


Or wait......Don't they already use something like this garbage??



Just get a POD X3 live rock that and bust the practice amp over the rest of the bands heads.

I'm a FOH/Monitor mixer at a reputable venue in Australia and I'd much prefer it if the bassist showed up with a DI or Pod etc.

JMJ uses basically a DI setup (an x3 live as backup) for NIN.

Hell it obvious isn't it.

[bstringrandy]

I'd agree with the earlier post that there may be a shred of truth in some of what your bandmates are telling you. If you're just running mains and no subs, then depending on the volume, you may be inducing some issues in the FOH sound. As for input, take it from someone actually in the crowd and don't go from what you hear on stage.

We gig 40 to 60 times a year and take the same PA to EVERY gig regardless of size. We have a "brain" rack that I don't begin to understand , mixer, 2 big Peavey 15"+horn mains on stands, 2 18" subs, 3 floor monitors, and an amp rack with a Mackie 2600 (subs), a Mackie 1400 for each main, and a Mackie 800 for the monitors. I play a SVTIIIPro through a 410HLF cabinet DI into the PA, the guitar is through a miked Fender Hotrod Deluxe 410 and 6 mikes for the Drums.

I adjust my stage volume until I can hear it clearly and trust the sound guy to handle the FOH mix. As I said, we take this rig to every gig and the only variable is how loud the FOH is set to match the venue size. We always get comments on how good the mix is and how full it sounds. The sound guy of course takes the credit for that...

You'll need to factor in all of the variables in your situation such as: gig frequency, budget, PA, music genre, venue sizes etc. and do what makes sense. It might be that you can get by with what you have if it's actually working...

Randy

[Marley's Ghost]

Some clubs have crappy worn out systems and the bass sounds like doo-doo. In smaller places I try to let my rig project out as much as possible without killing the mix, os I get my tone as opposed to just subwoofer thump.

[1954bassman]

My thinking is that if your PA cannot handle bass, then run vocals only through it...

Also, as mentioned earlier, cut bass out of anything running through the PA except the bass and the kick should help clean up your PA.

Mark