Your Bands PA....What's working

peterpalmieri · #1 10-06-2009, 09:38 AM

There are constant discussions on the boards these days about what type of bass amp is too much. Do you have to carry the house with your bass rig etc.

I thought I'd share what the main band I play with uses as a PA, what situations we use what gear and what I do with my bass rig to compliment what we're doing. I hope you guys and gals will also share your experiences.

The band I play with most of the time is:

www.tradewindstheband.com

we've been playing together for a pretty long time, I've been involved with this group for 7 years or so now. It existed before I joined and there are a number of off shoots of smaller jazz groups and smaller pop groups, subs in and out etc.. We're an 11 piece horn band with 4 horns and 3 singers....

Here is our current PA -

Allen & Heath Mix Wizard3 16:2
DBX Drive rack PA
Crown XTI 2000 (back up amp)
Crown XTI 4000 x2

We use a biamped system:
Bag End TA 2000 x2 as tops
Bag End S18D x2 as subs

Monitors:
EV ZX4 x2 (we might add two more)
JBL EON10 x3 (these are pretty beat up and on their way out)

Generally speaking we run everything through the PA 4 horn mics, 5 vocal mics, keys, guitar, bass, kick, snare, overhead. In smaller rooms we generally do not mic the drums, with some acceptions just the kick and in those small rooms no bass.

We do play a couple of very large outdoor events in the summer and we have a pair of Yamaha 15" tops that we may run full range to supplement the bag end stuff. We also play some large clubs in the winter where a PA is provided. In those venues they're running a massive PA, I believe it's 2x18" JBLS on each side of the stage, a line array on each side hanging from the ceiling and I think 6 JBL12" monitors, all the high end JBL stuff. All run with a massive rack of Macrotechs...

Now that I've got that squared away my bass rig....

I use a Euphonic Audio NL210 cabinet, for the smaller gigs I use a EA Doubler head, and for the larger gigs I use a EA IAMP Pro. For outdoor gigs and those large clubs I stack a EA VL208 on top of the NL210 which get's me to 4x10 volumes (which I used to use).

I run a DI out of the head and direct into the PA, on the smaller gigs I do not do this but may bring out the bigger head. The only time we have bass in the monitors is in the large clubs where we use the house PA. If it's a really strange room we may put a little bass in the drum monitor.

We strickly use a small percentage of our band fund for PA purposes and hope to add two more EV ZX4s and drop the JBL EONs from the monitor mix.

In any case I thought I'd share and would like to hear what you guys are doing. Any suggestions on the PA or my general thought process would be welcomed. I used to set up and run the whole rig myself but it was just to much work and I have trained a few of the horn players who have a little more down time and can step out front on occassion or accomodate monitor changes on the fly....

peterpalmieri · #2 10-06-2009, 10:38 AM

I picked up the Bag Ends used on Ebay when I was using a S15 stack.

I paid $260 each for the TA2000s and $290 each for the S18s. The S18s have been solid as a rock. We've managed to tear the cone on the TA2000s on both, it seems to be about 2 years before they tear or seperate. It's about $150 for a new speaker from the Bag End guys.

We've had the XTIs in for service, both having issues at one time or another for shutting down because they didn't see the right power coming from the wall. We now carry a back up.

SM57s and 58s disappear from time to time as do mic cables. Mic stands only last so long before they end up in the dumpster.

We also had a channel go out on the A&H which was a simple fix.

Regular maintenence sucks up most of our PA budget.

modulusman · #3 10-06-2009, 12:51 PM

My band uses all powered PA cabs. We mix and match depending on room size. For 100 people or less we use 2- JBL PRX512ms with a Pair of EAW NTs22 subs, Mackie Onyx 1640 mixer. For crowds up to 500 we use a combination of 4- JBL PRX 535s, and 2- EAW NT59s for tops. Subs 4 QSC HPRs and a pair of EAW NTs22s. For a mixer we usually use a soundcraft LX7-24. WE usually use IEMs for monitors but I have 4 of the PRX512ms if needed. For over 500 we usually hire out.

jaywa · #4 10-06-2009, 01:13 PM

We have a bunch of old P.A. cabinets, mostly JBL loaded that are all heavy as hell but sound good. I don't know what we have for mids and highs but we run two sub cabinets on each side, each cabinet having an 18-inch driver. Sometimes for really small rooms we drop it down to one sub per side. We're using mostly Carver power amps except for the 4 floor monitors (2 sub-mixes) which we drive with an ancient Peavey CS-800. I don't know the total wattage at FOH... probably in the 5-6,000 watt range I would guess. We can carry rooms up to about 600 capacity with this set-up, or small-scale outdoor gigs.

Bass and kick drum go through the P.A. ALWAYS - no exceptions. Small rooms I run my LowDown 150 combo, big rooms my 4x10 half-stack (SWR head, Hartke cabinet), using the onboard D.I. on either amp. I do not mic the cabinet. Really big rooms or outdoors I beg or borrow a 2nd 4x10 to run a full stack. I do not put bass through the monitors.

peterpalmieri · #5 10-06-2009, 01:15 PM

Modulusman,

How many people are in your group? We've considered going with IEMs but it just seems to be way to big of a task for 11 people. At least 6-8 different mixes, 11 wireless receivers on top of 4 wireless mics. Then the in ears themselves and EQ and limiters for everybody? Is it really that complicated?

I sometimes wish we had gone with all powered speakers but I'm pretty happy with the route we took. That's a pretty darn big rig when you've got all the guns blazing!

jaywa · #6 10-06-2009, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peterpalmieri

Modulusman,

How many people are in your group? We've considered going with IEMs but it just seems to be way to big of a task for 11 people.

I'm not Modulusman, but I sub sometimes for a horn band that usually runs between 11 and 14 pieces when all is said and done. Basically in that band the leader (singer/rhythm guitar/keys), the backup singers and the horn section wear IEMs while the drums, bass, lead guitar, aux percussion and keyboards get a wedge and/or just get their sound off their amps. I'm not sure how many sub-mixes they run but it seems to work out for them. Me personal monitor mix in those situations is usually less than ideal but it's good enough to get by. FWIW.

modulusman · #7 10-06-2009, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peterpalmieri

Modulusman,

How many people are in your group? We've considered going with IEMs but it just seems to be way to big of a task for 11 people. At least 6-8 different mixes, 11 wireless receivers on top of 4 wireless mics. Then the in ears themselves and EQ and limiters for everybody? Is it really that complicated?

I sometimes wish we had gone with all powered speakers but I'm pretty happy with the route we took. That's a pretty darn big rig when you've got all the guns blazing!

We are a four piece band. You really don't need any external EQs like graphic equalizers since you don't have any feed back problems. Most decent IEMs have built in limiters. With as many people as your band has it could get complicated. If you can't get members to share a mix you might need to buy a dedicated monitor board and they are pretty pricey. My band uses 3 Shure psm200s and one psm 400.

peterpalmieri · #8 10-06-2009, 01:55 PM

Very cool, thanks both of you....

Some things I think of with IEMS, there are some gigs where we don't run everything through the PA and in those cases we'd have to get IEMS to work.

Additionally there are clubs where the PA is provided and we'd have a tough time getting dedicated monitor mixes.

Then of course you run into having 11 wireless receivers along side wireless mics, I bet the singers would love it though.

Justice · #9 10-06-2009, 02:21 PM

For my 3 piece classic rock band, we use the following.

A&H MixWiz 16x2 board
Turbosound 15" + horn tops
EV Designed subs with 18" Fane speakers
QSC Plx (3000 watt amp for the tops) forget which model
2 Behringer EP2500 amps for the subs (one for each sub, running bridged) Subs are in mono, tops in stereo.

Monitors are as follows
2 Grundorf 12" in front (powered by one side of a Crown CE2000)
1 Yamaha Club series main (on other half crown) stacked on top of a 18" front loaded sub powered by a Peavey CS800. These are the drummers monitors.

This system has a couple of advantages. One is that with our current amps, we can double our FOH speakers without having to add any more amps. And for smaller rooms where we don't use the FOH subs, we still get the low end of the kick from the drummers monitor sub.

For my 6 piece country band. we have a full Carvin PA. 32 channel Carvin board, 3 way tops and 18" subs, powered by Carvin DCM 2000 amps. This band uses In-ears (also Carvin) and we have a 20 channel Crest monitor board and run 6 different stereo mixes. No backline, electric drums (high end Rolands) everyone goes direct.

peterpalmieri · #10 10-06-2009, 02:59 PM

Man you guys have massive FOH setups compared to me. We never really have a problem accept when we're doing big outdoor gigs. Which come down to less them 6 in a given summer.

We've got an extra set up Yamaha S115V cabinets that we swap out for the Bag End 12" tops outside but I'm considering running the Full Bag End system and then run the Yamahas with our back up amp full range. Have any of you guys done something like this?

modulusman · #11 10-06-2009, 04:07 PM

When my band plays bigger gigs we run the 4 PRX535s and 4 QSC subs off the left and right outputs of the LX7 mixer. Then we use the EAWNT59s off the center mono output, we usually put everything in the mix here except bass drum. I usually have these speakers aiming off to the side of the crowd or as front fills. We then will use my EAW subs stacked together in front of the stage off an Aux send and just use these to reinforce the kick drum.

Zooberwerx · #12 10-06-2009, 08:33 PM

Behringer 16 channel mixer (meh...its paid for)

Rane PE15 Para EQ / Sonic Maximizer in the main insert

Digitech Studio Twin in Aux 2

dbx Compressor (not in use but it will find a purpose!)

dbx Crossover

QSC PLX 3102 feeding two Carvin LS1503 mains

RMX 1450 feeding two el-cheapo Yorkville 18" subs

Monitors - an older nondescript Peavey PA head and a slew of old Fender and JBL main cabs...all beat to hell and back

This just in....we bought a DriveRack to replace a few of the aforementioned rack components. Keep your fingers crossed!

Riis

ric stave · #13 10-06-2009, 08:51 PM

4 pc band - - gtr/bass/drums/lead vocalist/everybody sings lead and backgrounds

Small-Med gigs:

Yorkville powered 8 channel mixer - 800w/side - 1 side mains, 1 side mon.
(2) Yorkville E600 cabs (mains)
(1) Yorkville LS700P powered sub (700w)
(2-3) monitors (drummer uses in-ears - dedicated pre-mix)

4 Vox Mics
Bass
Gtr
Backing Tracks
Kick or Overhead (depending on location)

Med-Larger gigs:

Yorkville powered 14 channel board (800w per side mains)
Yorkville Powered mixer as monitoe 2 channel power amp (800w/mon mix)
(2) E600 mains
(1-3) LS700p Powered subwoofer(s)
(3-4 monitors) (1 or 2 per channel)

Larger setup adds all drums mic'ed.

The small setup gives us 2300w (800w mains + 800w mon + 700w sub)

(Actually, 600w mains (4ohm cabs) + about 800-600w mon depending on how many 8 ohm monitors)

The larger setup gives us 3000w mains (800/soide mains + 2 X 700w subs ) and 1600w mon (2 mixes, 800w each)

Anything larger, we rent.

peterpalmieri · #14 10-07-2009, 10:22 AM

What types of bass rigs are you guys using? Mostly I am using a 2x10 cabinet

jdwinva · #15 10-10-2009, 08:44 PM

Our band does all our sound from the stage with me running it. It's a Mackie 16 CH board with effects into a Drive Rack PA (awesome) and into two Mackie SM450's and one Mackie SWA1501 Sub. Speakers are all powered and controlled by the Drive Rack PA.

modulusman · #16 10-11-2009, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peterpalmieri

What types of bass rigs are you guys using? Mostly I am using a 2x10 cabinet

My rigs are in my signature.

F-Clef-Jef · #17 10-12-2009, 12:33 PM

Just a little OT, the band I play with uses Mackie board and a pair of SRM450's and SWA115's for FOH, and in-ears for all monitors, (4 piece band, keys/trumpet, drums, guitar, bass, three vocals,) which has been working fabulously. All our in-ears are hardwired, so the in-ears cost was low, no wireless/battery hassles, and it works great. This past Saturday evening we played a benefit gig with three other bands, where sound was provided. Regular floor monitor wedges, a pretty decent JBL mid-sized PA, medium sized room maybe 150-200 people. So for the first time in nearly three years I got to use my bass rig (just a little Fender M80 160watt combo) and *try* to hear myself singing through floor wedges. I was really looking forward to all that live stage sound, moving air from my bass rig, you know, really really live! Well I have to tell you, it was the most horrific playing experience I've had in three years! I actually put my in-ears back in just to block the stage volume, (which really wasn't all that loud), but sounded like a total sonic mess. I am completely spoiled by the in-ears.

If I ever have to do a gig the old-fashioned way again (amps & wedge monitors) it'll be way too soon.

OrionManMatt · #18 10-12-2009, 01:13 PM

Ric, how are you liking that Yorkville setup?

peterpalmieri · #19 10-12-2009, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F-Clef-Jef

Just a little OT, the band I play with uses Mackie board and a pair of SRM450's and SWA115's for FOH, and in-ears for all monitors, (4 piece band, keys/trumpet, drums, guitar, bass, three vocals,) which has been working fabulously. All our in-ears are hardwired, so the in-ears cost was low, no wireless/battery hassles, and it works great. This past Saturday evening we played a benefit gig with three other bands, where sound was provided. Regular floor monitor wedges, a pretty decent JBL mid-sized PA, medium sized room maybe 150-200 people. So for the first time in nearly three years I got to use my bass rig (just a little Fender M80 160watt combo) and *try* to hear myself singing through floor wedges. I was really looking forward to all that live stage sound, moving air from my bass rig, you know, really really live! Well I have to tell you, it was the most horrific playing experience I've had in three years! I actually put my in-ears back in just to block the stage volume, (which really wasn't all that loud), but sounded like a total sonic mess. I am completely spoiled by the in-ears.

If I ever have to do a gig the old-fashioned way again (amps & wedge monitors) it'll be way too soon.

I would love to move to in ears but 11 people make it really challenging both logistically and financially. Thanks for sharing.

GinBassPlayer · #20 10-12-2009, 04:02 PM

My four piece band recently went to all IEM set up and it's worked great! absolutely ZERO stage volume sans the drums... (a sound guy's paradise, let me tell you!) .. the FOH mix has never sounded better through a midsized JBL pa.. there's no goofy frequencies from the stage to balance out, etc...

We bought the A&H MixWizard 16/2 ($2000) for onstage control of our ears and we all have the Shure PSM700's (pricey but worth it!). IEMs are M-Audio dual driver set ups ($250 each).. very nice if you get the custom molds to go with them... and since everything (including bass guitar) is input digitally on stage, we havent carried gear to gigs in months (other than the small/light weight MixWiz and our racks)... it was a risky transition, but so far so good!

It's still taking me some time to used to the lack of "moving air" that my bass rig used to provide, but the clarity of vocals and the ability to customize each individual mix is well worth it... Most nights I can still feel the FOH low end, so that helps too...

Peterpalmieri,
I would think the larger the band, the more reason to go IEM due to the "next to impossible" task of making everyone happy from a monitor mix standpoint.. but yes, it's super expensive and it took us over a year to transition to this kind of set up...