Zero Monitors - running mains behind band.

MNAirHead · #1 06-11-2011, 08:20 AM

has anyone here successfully run a PA with zero monitors (IEM OR wedges)?

The stuff I'm doing is ampless with VDrums...

I'm playing tons of upper end dining places, churches, reception halls and occasional clubs.

WE do have a DriveRack in the chain for feedback suppression.

Chebass88 · #2 06-11-2011, 08:23 AM

We just played a gig last night using the Bose "tower" system. It had one tower and one sub. We did not use any monitors, and the main "tower" was behind us. It sounded great! No feedback, and it filled the room well. (Room holds maybe 150 people).

MNAirHead · #3 06-11-2011, 08:28 AM

That's kind of what started this...

We scrapped the entire PA...

Bought the gear to have Ipod/Bose sound in front.. have gone as far as to put a mike VERY close to the mains...

The new gear covers much better without feedback....

Next step will be to ditch monitoring systems and downgrade to earplugs....

This scenario is much easier when there are only 3 open mikes (vocals) 100% of everything else is DI

Tim

RedLeg · #4 06-11-2011, 08:31 AM

i (guitars too) have gone completely ampless stage setup, but never monitorless. But hey, if your house mix is good and you are finding success, who can fault you?

MNAirHead · #5 06-11-2011, 08:35 AM

We're very close to monitorless now.

Since we don't have Acoustic drums we can use a single monitor.

We use the same FOH mix for the band (no individual mixes)

We'd still have harwired IEM for "more me" players.. I'd love to take the next step and want to ensure that someone with experience gives it a blessing first.

Tim

modulusman · #6 06-11-2011, 08:37 AM

I played a gig the other night with a band that way. It will work as long as you don't need alot of volume.

MNAirHead · #7 06-11-2011, 08:49 AM

modulus... meaning the mains were behind you?

modulusman · #8 06-11-2011, 09:24 AM

Yeah, we were suppose to be playing outside at a Harley Davidson dealership. It was cold and rainy so we set up inside and used a pair of Peavey PR10s on poles set up behind the band. We were playing really quiet so they worked with no feedback. The downside would be if you were playing at louder volumes it would be more likely to feedback. Also might be harder for the audience to here if a bandmember is standing in front of a speaker. It would also suck to be a bandmember standing in front of the speaker all night, I would imagine it could damage your hearing.

MNAirHead · #9 06-11-2011, 09:25 AM

still thinking.

jaywa · #10 06-11-2011, 12:12 PM

This is pretty much the whole concept behind those Bose tower systems as I understand it.

I know a couple of local outfits that use those Bose systems for "fools on stools" acoustic duo gigs and/or drum/keys/guitar trios in smaller venues. And they really like those setups a lot and sound pretty good with them. In full-band settings and larger rooms though, the reviews I've heard on the Bose tower systems are much less favorable and I don't know of any band who rolls that way... in this region, at least.

jaywa · #11 06-11-2011, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by modulusman

It would also suck to be a bandmember standing in front of the speaker all night, I would imagine it could damage your hearing.

Over Memorial Day weekend we played a room with just about the smallest stage footprint you could ever fit a 6-piece band into, so for space reasons I stripped all the way down to a SansAmp-to-board setup (no amp), and stood partially in front of one of the main stacks for monitoring. It actually was a lot of fun cause I was standing in front of our 2x18 sub and getting all kinds of "thump" which I've pretty much gotten used to going without with our IEMs. I actually was even leaning back against the sub for awhile and that was quite the kick (literally). The only thing I had to watch was that I didn't get my head right in line with the high-pak cause I did that a couple of times and the SPL at that proximity was definitely in the unhealthy range.

steveksux · #12 06-11-2011, 02:01 PM

I'd think they would work well at lower volumes, and feedback like a screaming banshee at higher volumes.

Bose likes to think they can violate the laws of physics, but its not as easy as it sounds...

That'd be fantastic for running sound from the stage without a soundman though. No whining about everyone getting their own mix.

Randy

MNAirHead · #13 06-11-2011, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steveksux

I'd think they would work well at lower volumes, and feedback like a screaming banshee at higher volumes.

Bose likes to think they can violate the laws of physics, but its not as easy as it sounds...

That'd be fantastic for running sound from the stage without a soundman though. No whining about everyone getting their own mix.

Randy

Steve...

I used to believe the same.. Quite sincerely we had brides whispering into the microphones..... standing directly in front of the mains... I had to run this signal almost wide open.

Never fed back.. mains and mics have come light years in the past few years.

steveksux · #14 06-11-2011, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

Steve...

I used to believe the same.. Quite sincerely we had brides whispering into the microphones..... standing directly in front of the mains... I had to run this signal almost wide open.

Never fed back.. mains and mics have come light years in the past few years.

Does the Bose have feedback suppression built in or something?

Cause its a law of nature: Gain > 1 and signal in phase at that frequency = feedback. No way around that, unless they detect and cut the gain at that particular freq with a notch filter.

Or they just don't have any significant high freq response at the likely feedback freqs....

Randy

MNAirHead · #15 06-12-2011, 06:21 AM

I'm not qualified to say how they do it current
Microphones and mikes are extremely tolerant to things that used to squeal

T-Bird · #16 06-12-2011, 11:24 PM

Hi.

What You're suggesting has been done many times over the decades, the Dead took it furthest with the aid of microphone "processing" on their wall of sound.

If the system is balanced, and the mic technique is decent, You'll have no problems with the annoying feedback. For a normal venue (bar) where a setup like that is has its merits, You'll get loud enough.

Granted, the bigger the singers pipes, the easier it gets, but we did that with a relatively soft voice female as well with only minor problems that were dasily corrected.

Makes mixing from the stage a breeze as well.

Regards
Sam

Munjibunga · #17 06-13-2011, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

Steve...

I used to believe the same.. Quite sincerely we had brides whispering into the microphones..... standing directly in front of the mains... I had to run this signal almost wide open.

Never fed back.. mains and mics have come light years in the past few years.

His name is Randy.

MNAirHead · #18 06-13-2011, 12:39 AM

Screen name Stevesux

Munjibunga · #19 06-13-2011, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

Screen name Stevesux

Steveksux. He signs all of his posts "Randy," and he apparently doesn't care for Steve K.

allexcosta · #20 06-13-2011, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

has anyone here successfully run a PA with zero monitors (IEM OR wedges)?

I don't know if I could say successfully but I have played without monitors many times. Speaker placement and angles are very important when doing this, play around when doing sound check and find a balance that allows everyone to hear themselves without feedback.

It's far from the best way to do it, but can be done without major problem, better yet if you got fewer mics onstage.