5 String Fretless Technique.

Floridabwoy · #1 07-08-2011, 07:30 AM

I got a 5 string fretless on friday, and it is a beast. Coming from a 4 string fretted it is a big leap. I took the B string off for now because it was messing me up. I figured when I get all the muscle memory for the 4 strings I would add the 5 back on. The problem is not so much the fretting hand but the right hand. I am having trouble reaching the G string. It feels way down there... any tips?

Billnc · #2 07-08-2011, 07:42 AM

I'd put the 5th string on asap. If you are having trouble reaching the first string, try floating thumb, or resting your thumb on the 5th string when not using it.

Justin Tuskey · #3 07-08-2011, 07:45 AM

+1 its harder to unlearn BAD habits than it is to suck it up and get used to the extra string right away. that is, if you want to play a 5 string bass, with 5 strings.

Gaius46 · #4 07-08-2011, 07:52 AM

There's two seperate things going on here. First you need to learn to play a fretless instrument which is a fair amount of work on it's own. Second is getting used to the 5th string and wider neck that comes with it.

As far as 5 string goes what you probably should do if you don't already is learn to anchor your right thumb on unused lower strings instead of on a pup or the neck or wherever you anchor it today. You'll find it much easier to reach the G string if your right thumb is resting on the B, E or even the A string. And as an added bonus you can use the thumb to mute a string that you don't want to sound.

I'd put the B string back on immediately and use that as thumb rest while playing the other strings. When you're comfortable with doing that then add the B string by resting your thumb where you normally do now.

Playing a 5 string opens up lots of possibilities for playing in different positions and those new positions might generate tonal changes you like better or make things easier to play. Spend time exploring them you probably be happy that you did.

Fretless technique itself could - and does - fill method books. First and foremost you need to work on your intonation. You shouldn't even bother learning fretless specific techniques until you can nail the intonation. Lots of books on how to do that. I particularly liked Chris Kringel's "Fretless Bass" book. He has a gift for sensible explanations and the included transcriptions of tunes that either were or should have been played on fretless basses are fun to play. If you can read music I'd also recommend Simandl's New Method for Double Bass. Yes it's a DB method but you can adapt it to electric bass and it works for thousands DB'ers.

Two pieces of advice I can give you about learning fretless is to use your ears. Really listen to what you're playing. If you don't do that you'll never intonate well. I routinely follow Steve Bailey's advice and play in the dark (or with my eyes closed) to force myself to listen.

Second is get friendly with the open strings. An open string is a fixed pitch reference that can be used to make sure that the notes that follow it are intonated correctly. Very few people have perfect pitch but most people can reasonably accurately judge when a pitch change is sharp or flat.

Floridabwoy · #5 07-08-2011, 07:58 AM

Thanks guys. It is not so much the intonation issues, especially with the B string off. When the B string is on I get lost as to which string is the E and A string. Because I am so used to the bottom string being E. I thought fretting would be harder than picking, but I am finding it harder to adjust to picking with all 5 strings on.

I will put the B on this weekend. I have only had the bass for a week. I am not expecting to be Christian McBride in a week.
I just figured it would be easier to get the feel of the bass with 4 strings and then add the B.

From what I am told I am wrong, but what bad habits can I pick up by doing this?

Yes I can read music.

Keep the advice coming please.

**Mound of Sound** · #6 07-08-2011, 08:17 AM

I sometimes rest my thumb on the top of the neck. Pending on the bass, the spacing will be a little tighter towards the neck, and the G will be a little "closer". You may not get the growl and mwah you want as if you're playing near the bridge.

Floridabwoy · #7 07-08-2011, 08:22 AM

MTD Kingston 19mm spacing

Dave Siff · #8 07-08-2011, 08:32 AM

I switched to 5-string full-time last year and got a fretless a couple of months ago. Here's my advice:
Put the B string back on immediately. You'll never get used to playing a 5 unless you've got all 5 strings on there. The best way to go from 4 to 5 is shock therapy, and neck width is the smaller part of the adjustment. You have to get used to having the extra string and incorporating it as an equal partner before you can discover the possibilities it affords as far as extra low notes, positional playing, etc.
As far as getting comfortable with your hands and accessing the upper strings, one thing I've found really useful is to mute the B with my right-hand pinky. I either rest it on top of the string or hook it underneath. I find this allows me more right-hand mobility than using the B as a thumbrest. I was never comfortable on the 5 until I started using my right hand this way, and then everything just clicked.

CDweller · #9 07-08-2011, 08:39 AM

Put the B string on before you do anything else.

Now. Get used to the idea that you won't sound as musical as you do at this point on a 4-string. Don't compare what you can do on a 4 to what you can do on this basically new instrument. Though they're similar, they're also quite different.

Take it slow, and if you can't play something, go slower. If you can't play something no matter how slow, then break it down into smaller chunks, and work on the little pieces.

How do you eat a whole elephant? One bite at a time, and make them small bites. Slow and steady gets you were you want to go in this game.

MrLenny1 · #10 07-08-2011, 09:47 AM

Yes, put the B back on and use it as a thumb anchor. If not you will
blow your reference position.

BassChuck · #11 07-08-2011, 10:55 AM

As for books on the subject of fretless bass, let me add a strong recommendation for Steve Bailey's book. Great exercises for intonation.

tpltx70 · #12 07-13-2011, 04:08 PM

I completely feel you, because shortly after I dove into fretless, I decided to go for broke and buy a Carvin 6-string fretless.

My friend, the first 2-3 months were a complete disaster! I only played the Carvin at home until I got used to it. The biggest adjustment was in my hand position for picking. I basically use only 3 techniques now - over the bridge pickup, over the neck pickup, and pivoting from beneath the strings to pluck with my thumb. Each has a different attack and overall tone, so I can really fine-tune the sounds coming out of the bass that way.

A good tip that I've seen mentioned above multiple times is to start getting used to a moving pivot. Learn what positions work for standard low end bass lines, for walking lines, for solos, for slap and pop, for thumb picking, etc. Spend your time working hard at transitioning between the various pivot locations smoothly.

While you do it, be sure to work up your vibrato with your left hand. That's often overlooked by new fretless players, and it will help your intonation immensely. Sometimes you want to hit right on the note, and sometimes it's better to sort of float over it.

Good luck!

onosson · #13 07-13-2011, 04:16 PM

Despite what everyone says, you don't have to use a B string. I have my fretless 5 strung with a high C. Depends what you want to do with the instrument.

AlvarHanso · #14 07-13-2011, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onosson

Despite what everyone says, you don't have to use a B string. I have my fretless 5 strung with a high C. Depends what you want to do with the instrument.

I don't see how that would help him learning how to play 5 strings, it would shift the G to an unfamiliar spot, and force you to learn a different pattern with a high C, whereas a low B keeps the same patterns, just adds a lower root option. His problem, he says, is unfamiliarity with string placement, not necessarily the B, but the fact that having the B makes for a wider neck, causing the highest string to be "out of reach".

I agree with everyone else, put the B on immediately, so you can get your left hand used to the width of the neck, and the right used to reaching down to the G. You may want to go to a high C, that's fine if you do, but you have to get your hands adjusted to playing 5 strings, no matter what they're tuned to. It may take some time, depending on how long you've been playing a 4. I switched to a 5 very early on when I started playing (first trying high C tuning), and my hands adjusted rather quickly. But I know going to a 6 would require more adjustment time, and relearning the patterns with a high C.

**251** · #15 07-13-2011, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Floridabwoy

Thanks guys. It is not so much the intonation issues, especially with the B string off. When the B string is on I get lost as to which string is the E and A string. Because I am so used to the bottom string being E. I thought fretting would be harder than picking, but I am finding it harder to adjust to picking with all 5 strings on.

I will put the B on this weekend. I have only had the bass for a week. I am not expecting to be Christian McBride in a week.
I just figured it would be easier to get the feel of the bass with 4 strings and then add the B.

From what I am told I am wrong, but what bad habits can I pick up by doing this?

Yes I can read music.

Keep the advice coming please.

+1, put the B String back on & start playing 2 octave scales, ascending & descending, in a circle of 4ths.

You might also find the attachment useful.

onosson · #16 07-13-2011, 07:53 PM

Well, the OP specifically said he was having trouble reaching the G string "way down there" with his right hand. Anyways, I'm not advocating high C as better than low B - as I said, it depends what you want to do with the instrument. People generally assume 5-string = BEADG, but that's only one option.

**lowendfriend** · #17 07-13-2011, 09:35 PM

Get the 5th string back on. Learn Todd Johnson's floating thumb technique. Play scales and arpeggiated chords aroound the circle of fourths and fifth incorporating the B-strings notes whenever you can. You \'ll find that on a number of key scales in the circles, you can do three consecutive fourths on the same fret simply by moving one string up.

I find that I mainly use the B-string notes from D0 up thru B1 and mainly use BEAD string notes.

AlvarHanso · #18 07-14-2011, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onosson

Well, the OP specifically said he was having trouble reaching the G string "way down there" with his right hand. Anyways, I'm not advocating high C as better than low B - as I said, it depends what you want to do with the instrument. People generally assume 5-string = BEADG, but that's only one option.

Yes, but he's still going to have to adjust to the G being in an unfamiliar spot either way. If you go high C, now G isn't the highest string, C is. And he's going to have to figure out how to adapt his left hand to playing the E where the low B would be, which seems even harder than learning a low B, because E is much easier to reach than low B. The right hand is obviously important, but the left will take more time to adapt to a much wider neck, especially if he's having to reach all the way up to E in the low B spot. Plus, throw in what I mentioned about relearning patterns for high C, and it becomes a much more difficult proposition for transitioning from 4 to 5, in my opinion. I totally agree that high C is a viable option, but is it how you would want to transition to a 5? I did it that way, and after a couple months switched back to low B, and it got a helluva lot easier. My main point is, that there is transition time involved either way, for the left hand, and for the right hand, but it would be a harder transition for the left with a high C, and possibly for the right as well, because he's used to G being the highest string, not the second highest. I know I got thrown off when I had high C, playing the C, when I needed to be on the G.

onosson · #19 07-14-2011, 08:31 AM

My experience was the opposite - I had a 5 as my first bass in my teens, originally with a low B, but switched to a high C as I found it more useful. Eventually I converted it to a 4 string, and only much later got my current 5, after only playing 4s for years.

I think you're right that there are difficulties involved either way, but I find it hard to see how one way is objectively easier than the other. I can never get used to having the E not as the top string, whereas some people probably find it difficult to adjust to not having G at the bottom (the fact that I've played guitar as long as bass might be a factor in my case). In any case, I hope all this discussion has helped the OP on some way.

AlvarHanso · #20 07-14-2011, 09:04 AM

I'd say it's easier when switching from a 4. You started on a 5, and thus your left hand was used to the wider neck. I just think reaching all the way up there for an E would be tougher to get used to. And I, too hope this has proven useful. I'm not trying to say one is objectively easier than the other, because it's my subjective experience that tells me the B would be an easier adjustment, especially if he knows the patterns for a 4, because that high C is a little odd, and I'm still not sure I understand why it's in fact tuned to C, rather than B, as on a guitar. I would think that would have been somewhat tough for you switching between guitar and bass. How did you handle that difference? (Any time I pick up a guitar, which is pretty rarely, the B and high E always throw me off, and the lack of a low B does as well, but I don't play much guitar at all.)