ability to jam

Mr Grady · #1 07-10-2010, 08:07 AM

hi guys,

i was invited to meet a guitarist and drummer the other evening which is the start of a new band.
both guys are very experienced (25 - 30 years), ive been playing approx 5 years and am 75% self taught.
they want to play classic rock and blues.
think cream, wishbone ash, free ect.

apart from two songs in a setlist i was sent, i didnt know any others.

these i played sort of ok, due to my big problem..........

they both started jamming, and with a "this is in A" were off.

this left me standing there like a total newbie, getting very red and hot n bothered, not doing anything.

mainly due to this they have contacted me and have said they are looking for a more experienced bassist.

this doesnt bother me too much as i felt out of my depth, but am i going to be in this position every time i try for a band?

the only band ive been in was with a guitarist who started the same time as me, so we were learning songs together and didnt really ever "jam".

so, am i someone who can play songs that ive learnt on a bass as opposed to someone who can PLAY the bass?

in a nutshell:does my lack of jamming skills make me less of a player?

cheers.

MalcolmAmos · #2 07-10-2010, 08:30 AM

Some piano players can only play form sheet music (by rote) that does not make them less than a person that can improvise and play with out sheet music.

Two different skill levels in play here. I love to jam, and believe me you do not have to be all that skilled to jam. It's mostly grab a I IV V and hang on. http://members.virtualtourist.com/m/p/m/1705d8/ Jamming is mostly just having fun with other musicians, no one is keeping score.

When they said this one is in A you were to assume some stuff. 1) A cookie cutter progression was going to work. I IV V I or I V I IV V I or even I vi IV V I will get you buy. Watch the rhythm guitar's hands and change chords when he does. Course helps to have played rhythm guitar so you can recognize the fingering. Place the major scale pattern and play your generic riffs, i.e. R-3-5-3 over the chord changes. If that went over your head you gotta know how to play generic riffs as there will not be any sheet music.......

Then 2) Roots, R-5 and R-5-8-5 with R-3-5-b7 for the dominant seventh chord is about as fancy as you need to get. Change with the chord changes and do what ever it takes to get the groove going. If that is all roots, so be it.

If you get lost the tonic root is good till you find your place and if you can not pick out the chord changes then the tonic pentatonic scale will let you continue.

OK how do you practice jamming? Call up some Internet video's and jam with them. I know you will have to figure out what key. That's not all that hard, if you need help with that just ask. Best done in another string.

Start here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUK5pE5x_6A The Blues progression is very predictable grab the 12 bar progression and hang on. Look at what is over in the right hand side of the screen.

For grins http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fX5US...eature=related Here is the key and the chords http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/gui...ngs.php?ida=15 take a peek at the fake chord and then see what you can do without the music. When he goes off, yep, stay out of his way you are to augment not compete as mentioned vamps work great during his improv.

Good luck.

Daveomd · #3 07-10-2010, 08:43 AM

It's definitely something I would work on if that's the style of music you are going to be playing with people in that age group. If you were playing top 40 or pop stuff it would probably be O.K. to just learn songs note for note and play them the same way every time. When you are playing with people who have been around for a while in the blues/classic rock scene, jamming is to be expected, plus it really is a good thing to be able to think on your feet because the guitarist will inevitably want to "stretch" out from time to time. The good news is, it will usually be over simple blues changes or nore often than not, vamping in E or A for a while. I would recommend learning a few scales in those keys and listen to some live Allman Brothers with Berry Oakley for melodic ideas. It's scary if you're new to it but it becomes automatic pretty quickly once you find some good people to practice it with.

Ski3223 · #4 07-10-2010, 11:13 AM

I am 100% self taught (no formal teaching). The most valuable tool I've had in jamming situations like this in the 8 years or so that I've been playing has been the ability to predict and recognize those chord progressions when you hear them. Its a multi-step process though.

1) Know the key
--Don't just know its in A, know EVERY note in the A scale(s), and where they are.
--Knowing this is essential to working well within the next step:

2) Get/decipher/create the progression
--If the key is not given, then be able to infer it from the progression given/deciphered/created by you, i.e. if its a I V VI IV and the starting note is C, its probably in C (or Am).
--If the key IS given, and you're only jamming with one guitar and they play a melody line as opposed to the chord progression (assuming there is no rhythm) its pretty much up to you to pick one and set it (if its just a jam and not a song that they assume you know). Pick a popular one and go with it.
--I agree, knowing basic chord shapes on the guitar helps with jamming A LOT!! Essential skill. Learn ASAP.

:Side Note: More often than not, I am in the situation of not ever having heard or played the song that my buds will start playing (they like Christian Rock and some worship stuff cause its easy and whatever, I hate it so I don't know any of it). You've gotta pick that key out. The progression can be derived just by watching, then pick the key out from that if you have to.

3) Recognize patterns
--KNOW YOUR FRETBOARD IMPECCABLY and the patterns/shapes that certain chord progressions produce. Know what an A scale looks like when your fingers play it on the fretboard without having to think "okay uhh, B, C# uhhh D."
--Ex. Rhythm plays I IV V. Lead starts a melody or something similar. Link up with the drummer, get the feel he is putting out. If its a cuttime punky thing, play mostly roots in 8th notes. If he/she is swinging, throw a walking bass line out there (refer to #1). Doubletime metal (relatively unlikely on a I IV V, automatically recognize stuff like this), play a riff and stick to it or emulate the rhythm

:Side Note: Learn the modes. Be able to play in keys where the central chord is not the tonic of the key, i.e. the song is in A, but the "tonal center" or "root chord" of the song is D.

Recognize common chord progressions, scales, riffs, fills, whatevers, and apply them to the jam you're doing. Give them meaningful names or mental images (for me, a I V VI IV makes a T shape, so I call it a T shape progression. A I V II VI makes square, so I call it a square progression). Make up names for your favorite fills and stick them where you need em. Just let the YOU flow.

I consider jamming/improv and theory (my own brand of it anyway) my strongest point. Since I am self-taught, technique is my weak/inconsistent point. I had to try to contribute as opposed to asking questions all the time. Hope this all makes sense and helps!!

bassbrad · #5 07-10-2010, 12:00 PM

Consider it a lesson learned, believe me we have all been there more than once,(not gonna say how many times it's happened to me) sure it sux, but you gotta learn what you can from the situation. Learn as much about music as you can but also do what so many of have done in the past=play along with records. Just dive in and see what you can grab on to, soon you will be swimming.

DanAleks · #6 07-10-2010, 02:45 PM

Ski & Malcom - EXCELLENT advice!

Mr Grady · #7 07-10-2010, 02:56 PM

guys, bless you all!

im not at all pissed with them, they were really great guys, in fact this maybe the kick in the ass i need.

take care all

Exploiter8 · #8 07-10-2010, 03:18 PM

The weird thing is, I recently experienced somewhat of the reverse situation. Instead of our usual jam, we had a singer sit in for a change. He was more of a "just like the record" kind of guy, which is cool. It felt strange playing songs without the extended leads or extra verses! I've gotten so used to what our version of songs have morphed into, doing it closer to the original sounds almost foreign!

X8

SurferJoe46 · #9 07-11-2010, 10:29 AM

They could have been testing your ability to find a key and box it out too. I know jazz progressions are tough and some of rock is blistering fast - but I find it's all built on common boxes - even Geddy Lee - although his talents go in multiple directions at the same time.

Jamming is a great way to warm-into a group and everyone gets a feel of where the other players are - experience wise.

Unfortunately for me - the group I am noodling with thinks 'Folsom Prison Blues" is their 'warm-up' song and they play it for 20 minutes until everybody is grooved together.

Before this turns into the "Johnny Cash Can't Carry A Tune In A Peach Basket" yelling match - it is good (in an arcane way) to have that one song that gets the ball rolling - and that's really what jamming is all about to me.

I think we are all being tested, honed and educated all the time we have a bass strapped on.

Jamming is just the warm-up act in my eyes for bigger and better things. If you try to be in the same groove with the rest of the group - at least TRY - they will recognize it and unless they want to leave next week on a world tour, then you are on golden ground with such experienced and accomplished artists.

warnergt · #10 07-11-2010, 07:34 PM

We tried out a number of bass players for our band and, invariably, we
tried some sort of 12-bar blues jam. Surprisingly, many did not know
what to do. I know most of us were wondering "what's up with that?"

12-bar blues is the first progression I can remember learning on a bass
and I probably played it 1000 times in just a few years. It is the
backbone to more songs than you can shake a stick at. Many more
tunes are just a derivation of it. I would think that a decent bass player
would have this nailed down. Surprisingly, many experienced bass
players didn't.

The bad news is that you missed an opportunity. The good news is that
it isn't too hard to correct. You've probably done it many times
without realizing it. You just need to understand what it is and do it.
Once you do, you will realize that it is no big deal.

Billnc · #11 07-11-2010, 07:48 PM

Anyone who has not made it through an audition a few times in their life is playing it too safe. I've been told forget it.. and been suprised at what I landed. The point is learning what you need to work on.

What you didn't get was blues based music. First thing I would work on is hearing the root progression, once you've got that add th R5 patterns and figure out if the chords are major or minor, whether you play only roots on the tunes or not.

KingRazor · #12 07-11-2010, 10:40 PM

Reading through this thread I realize that has to be my next step. Keys. Up until now I've been ignoring them because they just didn't make sense to me. One of the posts in this thread caused something to "click"...............Now I want my bass back from the shop! Hurry up!

loopee · #13 07-11-2010, 10:52 PM

At least they told you it was in A ---- I tried out with a band once and I didn't even get that, I had to guess what key and what song it was......

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Grady

hi guys,

i was invited to meet a guitarist and drummer the other evening which is the start of a new band.
both guys are very experienced (25 - 30 years), ive been playing approx 5 years and am 75% self taught.
they want to play classic rock and blues.
think cream, wishbone ash, free ect.

apart from two songs in a setlist i was sent, i didnt know any others.

these i played sort of ok, due to my big problem..........

they both started jamming, and with a "this is in A" were off.

this left me standing there like a total newbie, getting very red and hot n bothered, not doing anything.

mainly due to this they have contacted me and have said they are looking for a more experienced bassist.

this doesnt bother me too much as i felt out of my depth, but am i going to be in this position every time i try for a band?

the only band ive been in was with a guitarist who started the same time as me, so we were learning songs together and didnt really ever "jam".

so, am i someone who can play songs that ive learnt on a bass as opposed to someone who can PLAY the bass?

in a nutshell:does my lack of jamming skills make me less of a player?

cheers.

gkbass13 · #14 07-11-2010, 10:56 PM

Whoa.....another Tb'er named Grady....

-Grady

tobie · #15 07-12-2010, 12:24 AM

Spend a lot of time practicing intervals (aka 'ear practice'). Most guys will at least give you the key they play in (the most difficult part to figure out, specially if they're blasting away in the mean time) - thereafter it's concentration time, so you're on your own. If you know intervals, you'll recognise the chord changes within that key and once you hit a right chord, life suddenly becomes a lot simpler.

ssbass · #16 07-12-2010, 12:33 PM

I just went through the same thing. I went to an audition about month and half ago. They gave me 5 covers to learn. Went to the audition nailed the covers and they invited me back. Fast forward to yesterday and I receive an email saying the I was out and they wanted to look for a new bass player that could pick up new songs and jam on the spot.

The thing is I know I have a lot to work on when it comes to jamming. I know the standard I IV V, but I'm more of a learn the cover from the recording kinda player. I just wish I hadn't wasted the last month and half. I could tell after the second or third practice that they wanted to be more of a jam band then cover band. They would just go off on these long jams instead of working on the set list and I guess they didn't like my jamming skills. So I'm back to looking for a cover band. I learned you just need to find people who fit with your skill set. If you want to be in a cover band don't join a jam band. Lesson learned.

RustyAxe · #17 07-12-2010, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Grady

this doesnt bother me too much as i felt out of my depth, but am i going to be in this position every time i try for a band?

I've been playing (keys, guitar, bass guitar, upright bass) since 1967. Rock, folk, country, jazz, blues. You are simply inexperienced. Not good or bad in itself, just a fact. You also aren't trained in music theory. Again, just a fact. Find a band with members a little more experienced ("seasoned") than yourself. That way you have an attainable goal, and might learn something in the process.

You might have been tested. I know lots of players, even with decades of experience, who lack the ability to pick things up in a jam. Personally (and someone will probably flame me for saying this) I much prefer someone who has a varied experience, and has the chops to hear and create a part on the fly ... much more than I do someone who can only play what he practiced exactly as he learned it. I might say to a prospective member, "let's do a 12-bar blues in A, go to B on the turnaround" or "it's a rag ... 1-6-2-5, oh and the minor in the bridge is the 3" and expect by the third time through the he will nail it. Obviously, that takes familiarity with the genre, a knowledge of theory, and some chops to make it happen.

Quote:

in a nutshell:does my lack of jamming skills make me less of a player?

Than a player with 30 years experience? Of course.

mcm · #18 07-12-2010, 01:38 PM

u must learn the blues stuff first in order to jam and improvise, it gives you a refence point. just ask jimi and jimmy and eric and pete and duane and greg and jerry, etc

SurferJoe46 · #19 07-12-2010, 03:19 PM

The last thing you want to do right now is sit back and lick your wounds. You've had a great learning experience - now do something about it.

The next last thing I'll say here is that you should never play with a band that is less experienced than you - since you need the education and time in the mix to get settled and you'll not get there as fast as you could if you have somebody - or a bunch of somebodies - who don't even have your experience.

Now the next to last thing I am gonna say is: don't hold yourself back by being anchored to lesser players unless you have a lot of time and don't care about progressing very rapidly. Beer drinking buddies do not always good players make. They may be fun to be around - but you'll get held back. You can only learn by being around someone better.

I remember a saying that works - although it may sound harsh: "It's hard to soar like an eagle when you're surrounded by turkeys".

That really was the last thing I'm gonna say --------- until the next time.

fdeeptone · #20 07-13-2010, 07:33 AM

Somthing you may try as well that has worked for me and contributed to the band is remeber its a freestyle jam. The drums and bass dictate the rhythm. Every practice one of our guitarists will start somthing from nothing. Never know what they are going to throw at me so i find my way in, focus on the drums, once I've found the groove I may throw the same curve at them by lookng at the drummer and changing up the groove leading the guitars into another direction

Bit of their own medicine and is alot of fun. The guitarists love it and it challenges them a bit as well and opens up ideas from another source that may have not been considered originally, basically just have fun and play fearlessly