about playing ahead or behind the beat...

joebar · #1 12-03-2011, 10:46 PM

although i have been playing a long time and have really good tempo, i have never had the lightbulb moment when people talk about this subject.
i guess in my mind, if you are in time then you cannot be ahead or behind...
please help me understand this.

Dr. Love · #2 12-03-2011, 11:00 PM

Play with a drummer who has tempo issues and you'll probably have that lightbulb moment. You can play in a way that either pushes the tempo or pulls them back. I know a guy who is almost always behind the beat: it's like he has to hear it first, then play it. If you slow down to match him, he slows down even more, so you alway have to be a hair ahead to keep him on time. It works because it's a consistent pattern, always the same amount ahead so it doesn't speed up, and doesn't slow down.

It's a very subtle thing, really something you have to feel while it's happening to to understand fully.

joebar · #3 12-03-2011, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Love

Play with a drummer who has tempo issues and you'll probably have that lightbulb moment. You can play in a way that either pushes the tempo or pulls them back. I know a guy who is almost always behind the beat: it's like he has to hear it first, then play it. If you slow down to match him, he slows down even more, so you alway have to be a hair ahead to keep him on time. It works because it's a consistent pattern, always the same amount ahead so it doesn't speed up, and doesn't slow down.

It's a very subtle thing, really something you have to feel while it's happening to to understand fully.

well...i have always played with a solid drummer so i guess that expalins why i don`t get it.

i hear sometimes musicians talk about a drummer that plays behind the beat etc. and it is in a favorable light. how is that?

skychief · #4 12-03-2011, 11:58 PM

Sometimes i like play ever so slightly behind the beat. Adds a dimension of tension and drama... Of course, you cant do this all the time. It depends on the song, really.

I would never play ahead of the beat.

mixamatchi · #5 12-04-2011, 12:07 AM

The "feel" of the song is most often dictated by playing ahead or behind the beat.In different genres this can mean different things. In most popular music, the band plays slightly behind the drummer, leading to the belief that you must follow the drummer. As bassists, we are both rythm and melody, and are part of the "rythm section". If it feels right, then the rythm section is in time. Who is playing ahead is relative to the desired feel of the song. Classic jazz, often has the bassist out front, and the drummer floating
tempo wise. As has been said, if you are playing with a drummer who has a tempo problem, you'll know it.

96tbird · #6 12-04-2011, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Love

Play with a drummer who has tempo issues and you'll probably have that lightbulb moment. You can play in a way that either pushes the tempo or pulls them back. I know a guy who is almost always behind the beat: it's like he has to hear it first, then play it. If you slow down to match him, he slows down even more, so you alway have to be a hair ahead to keep him on time. It works because it's a consistent pattern, always the same amount ahead so it doesn't speed up, and doesn't slow down.

It's a very subtle thing, really something you have to feel while it's happening to to understand fully.

I've played with that drummer, it's exhausting. Anyway some songs, styles of music require a lazy bass line, slightly behind the beat. I betcha you do it and don't realise that you are... it's just the feel of it.

Stumbo · #7 12-04-2011, 12:29 AM

Here is a previous TB thread on the topic and a couple of related ones:
Playing behind/ahead of the beat
"Feel"
Playing "in the pocket"

I've heard bassists on recordings and it seems to me that you're playing on the one "and" to play a head of the next beat and the two "and" to play behind the last beat. Based on what I've heard, it wasn't to make up for drummer issues but done to change the feel of the tun.

joebar · #8 12-04-2011, 12:34 AM

this is very interesting to me. i am a stickler for time though; always have been.
an example:
i played an outdoor show with my aforementioned drummer and it was a huge stage etc.
there were many bands before and after us.
we started off the first song without a soundcheck and something occured to me: when the drums kicked in, i realized that they were not in the monitors, but everyone else was.
i could not hear the drums without amplification, but could hear everything else.
i wasn`t sure if the drummer could hear me (although he had a huge monitor in his ears). i knew my time was always good and so i just led the way.

after the show i explained the dilemma and he said he could hear me no problem; i just couldn`t hear him. he said my time was perfect all the way through the first song. amazing.
i said all of that to say this:
surely if i was playing behind or ahead of the beat my drummer would have noticed it and told me right? is it possible that i was spot on?

Duke21 · #9 12-04-2011, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 96tbird

I've played with that drummer, it's exhausting. Anyway some songs, styles of music require a lazy bass line, slightly behind the beat. I betcha you do it and don't realise that you are... it's just the feel of it.

Sting have this quality of playing behind the beat. Him and Stuart Copland really have some nice grooves.

Shakin-Slim · #10 12-04-2011, 12:40 AM

I feel it's a whole lot more common than people think. It's subtle but one of the main factors in a songs groove. In many soul and hip hop groups a drummer will hit the 2 and 4 quite late.

dezspet · #11 12-04-2011, 01:09 AM

Listen to (or play with natural feeling) Tell me bout it from Joss Stone. It's a typical song where you play a little bit behind to have the right groove.
Listen to Ray Brown playing jazz. He is one of the best examples of the right walking bass feel being ahead of the drum.
When I do not pay attention to the drum, but instead I just try to follow my inner feel of the right groove I often find myself playing ahead or behind the drums. I think it is happening to most of the bass players, but maybe they just do not realize it...

M0ses · #12 12-04-2011, 01:22 AM

It doesn't mean you're out of time. In many cases it will take your playing from technically good to just sounding awesome.

It works because you're at the same tempo: if you're behind the beat every time by just a little bit, it works as long as you're behind by the same amount. And of course it has to be just a tiny little bit. The average observer won't realize that is what they're hearing: they just think it grooves.

Stumbo · #13 12-04-2011, 11:19 PM

I've heard Willie Weeks play behind/ahead of the beat.

FaithNoMan · #14 12-05-2011, 12:58 AM

Either way is fine, depending on the song.

Sometimes, playing slightly on top of the beat gives a rock track a LOT of forward momentum.

And what about "rubber band" style? Going ahead, then behind, then ahead...etc. Very funky and groovalicious way to spice up a track or song.

James Judson · #15 12-05-2011, 01:21 AM

If you play just ahead of the beat, it will give you a rushed feeling, upbeat tempo, I should get up and dance feeling. Really good for R&R.

If you play just behind the beat will give the feeling of easy going, no where to go, no need to hurry feeling. Great for blues.

I like it best when a song goes from one to the other.

Ya'll need to hear the song "EASY" I think by the Commodores. Theres a part where the horns go baa baa baa baa baa and next is a note so early it creates tension and next a note so late ya feel like the groove is gone. One example of pushing and pulling on the beat.

Would that be considered playing in the pocket?

Marty Forrer · #16 12-05-2011, 01:36 AM

In classic jazz the drums are not there for timekeeping, that is the double bass' job. The drummers job is to provide accents and dynamics. Having said that, the ride cymbal usually locks with the double bass, the rest of the kit is for accents. Of course, I am generalising, and there will always be exceptions. A solid bassist, eg: Ray Brown or Paul Chambers, set such a strong pulse there was no need for any other timekeeping.