Alternating Fingers

Blue Nate · #1 06-18-2009, 07:41 AM

I've been playing for about a year now and taking lessons for eight months. I've made a lot of progress and seem to have a decent ear, but have reached something of an impasse with my bass teacher. He's an excellent teacher, invoking just the right combination of fear and encouragement, and extremely fastidious about technique. This is definately a good thing because it instills a discipline I wouldn't have if learning out of a book.

Problem is this - he has a freakishly good right hand technique. He never fails to alternate - ever. He never rakes. He basically never makes a mistake and wants to impart that kind of discipline in me. But it takes soooo much effort for me to keep my IM alternating without a hitch, and I'll usually be pulled up and told to start again if I make more than a couple of mistakes. (Which is most times since I only manage about 90% accuracy on this) My focus is naturally on my left hand, and I have difficulty focusing on both, so I have to play much slower to avoid those right hand mistakes. As you can probably imagine, its extremely frustrating to be told to stop playing in the middle of a song or scale demo despite hitting all notes correctly.

Bass Guitar for Dummies effectively seems to recommend raking. I've trusted my teacher thus far because he is an excellent player and took me from beginner to intermediate very quickly, but I want to move forward in my tuition without the endless exercises in maintaining my IM alternation.

Just want to know people's feelings. To what extent is it worth pursuing this? I can understand that he would want me to start off on the right foot and master excellent technique early, but to what end? Does it really matter that much?

El Bajo · #2 06-18-2009, 08:44 AM

Yes it does. I had lessons that followed a similar pattern to yours but then I moved away and didnt bother getting a new teacher. I found the correct right hand technique helped with speed, attack and I hardly ever use legato (apart from reeelly fast fills but even then I make them apart of my practice routine so that I will eventually learn it) 10 years after taking those lessons I'm still working on my right hand technique its never ending.

If I have a problem with a tricky riff its always the right technique.

PJSShearer · #3 06-18-2009, 09:08 AM

In my opinion if you are getting the job done - your Bass lines are accurate, all notes clean and even - then don't sweat it. Right hand technique is very important but it ain't the be-all and end-all.

Spedracer · #4 06-18-2009, 09:18 AM

In my humble opinion i feel like he means well in teaching you this, but its not completely necessary. Actually it could be bad to alternate for a particular bassline.

Your attack is different for each finger, due to different muscle strengths and differing finger lengths. These factors change the way each finger sounds when it hits the string. Tim Commorford (rage against the machine) said something along the lines of; When he was young he watched Geddy Lee (rush) and in certain parts of a song, even when two fingers would make things easier, Geddy used one finger. This gave his bassline a pulsing, even sound.

I agree with what Tim says, for certain parts of a song or whole songs, nothing does the job better than one finger.

Also, i say this humbly as i have much to learn when it comes to bass playing.

mambo4 · #5 06-18-2009, 02:07 PM

while there are many famous players who don't strictly alternate, It's definitely worth practicing. You don't have to alternate but you ought to be able to.

There is a world of expressive opportunity in how you use your right hand.

I don't think about it much these days, but I usually alternate IM. It's a matter of muscle memory. a few months of regular practice and it should be come an automatic habit.

If focusing on you LH is distracting, just fret one note while focusing on your right hand...or better yet use open strings and see how much control you can achieve with just your right hand. Practice nothing but IM alternating for a 10-15 minutes a day and soon you won't need to think about it.

and practice slow and even.

Craig_S · #6 06-18-2009, 02:30 PM

Being able to alternate, like your teacher wants you to, will pay off with fluid right hand movement for any combination of notes, across whatever strings. Having said that: I would probably fail at it, myself. Honestly, I don't think about my right hand anymore. It just goes where it needs to.

I know I should work on my right hand a bit more. My attack gets heavy, sometimes. It comes from flailing away on rock songs all my life.

Spedracer · #7 06-18-2009, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spedracer

In my humble opinion i feel like he means well in teaching you this, but its not completely necessary. Actually it could be bad to alternate for a particular bassline.

Your attack is different for each finger, due to different muscle strengths and differing finger lengths. These factors change the way each finger sounds when it hits the string. Tim Commorford (rage against the machine) said something along the lines of; When he was young he watched Geddy Lee (rush) and in certain parts of a song, even when two fingers would make things easier, Geddy used one finger. This gave his bassline a pulsing, even sound.

I agree with what Tim says, for certain parts of a song or whole songs, nothing does the job better than one finger.

Also, i say this humbly as i have much to learn when it comes to bass playing.

Ok first, Bad could be a little harsh, lets say...not ideal. And i was not trying to undermine the importance of alternating fingers. It is a valuable technique, but i wouldn't let it interfere with the way you would want to express a bassline. Can you dig it?

Plus if anyone can back up what I'm saying i would appreciate it. Or conversely, if someone disagrees with me id also like to hear. We're all here to learn right?

TOOL460002 · #8 06-18-2009, 03:37 PM

for how long youve played, frustration is going to be there, its just how it goes. after about three or four years of decent teachers (guitarists teaching bass), i got a legit teacher, and got the same kind of treatment. strict is good, as it will build strength that you probably need at this point.

no raking? really? i completely disagree with that. im not sure why that is bad. it can be more efficient, therefore useful.

DeluxeRed · #9 06-18-2009, 03:58 PM

Learn all the techniques you can from whoever is willing to teach them, and take everything they say with a grain of salt. And remember, there are no absolutes, it's whatever works for the song. With a big enough toolkit, you'll be able to pick and choose how to hit a particular sound in your head.

I use one-finger, two-fingers, three-fingers, thumb for picking, thumb for slapping, up to and including big-ending four-finger wild strumming over a two-octive root-fifth chord. None of them are "right" or "wrong" technique, they are just the tools I use to play the songs.

Most people who love music have something useful you can learn from them (just look at TB!)...but never let anyone close-off your options.

klokker · #10 06-19-2009, 05:42 AM

I think its super important to have control over which fingers you are using in the alternating technique....to develop that awareness. When I first began playing I would often "double pluck" with the same finger while making the transition to another string for example, and not even realize I was doing it.

I would stick to the discipline until you have a real control and awareness over which fingers you are using as you play, then you can modify your fingerings to suit your tastes and the music. Overall, I have found keeping up a fairly strict alternating pattern to be a big help in my playing.

Big Mother · #11 06-19-2009, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Nate

To what extent is it worth pursuing this? I can understand that he would want me to start off on the right foot and master excellent technique early, but to what end? Does it really matter that much?

"But to what end"?
That is up to you.
Sounds like your teacher is giving you good advice and setting you up for strong advancement.
You may rake in the future, you may play with one finger, you might use many interesting methods, but not unlike a building, without a sound foundation, it may fail.
Your teacher is giving you a foundation that will in time allow you to determine what works best in every situation.

My $0.02

BM

Anonymatt · #12 06-19-2009, 04:27 PM

Rake dude, just rake. I understand that if the movement involves two strings, especially if they're not adjacent, theoretically, you should be able to get an alternate finger to the next string quicker. Though I gotta say, I've never encountered this issue in stuff I play (some of it's pretty quick). Now, if your phrase, say, involves more than two strings played in series, it seems wild, wild, wild (I'm simulating it at my desk at work) to ask your middle finger to move right past your index just as it's plucked a string--I mean, I'm talking fast, fast licks.

There are some times when I don't alternate when I would normally. A.) Certain things look cool on stage when you pluck real hard repetitively with your middle finger. B.) The middle finger has got so much more leverage than the index, so if you're playing, say, four band-unison quarter notes during the last measure a song's "loud part", that first hit can be LOUD, and every one after is LOUDER than the last. And you look cool! (I do a thing where my hand travels up above the bass, as if I couldn't stop the momentum of my plucking action. It must look legit to laypeople.)

jaywa · #13 06-19-2009, 04:36 PM

I've never gotten the logic of the strict alternation thing. Especially when crossing strings. If I'm playing root-octave "disco" pattern, It's not going to be with index on the E string and middle on the high octave on the D string... I'm gonna be thumbing the E and the hitting the D string with my middle finger, and the 1st finger is in perfect position to grab anything in between on the A string and/or mute it. Same token, I may very well play root eighths with alternating index-middle on the A string, but if my last note on that string is the middle finger, I'm not going to stretch my index finger all the way down to the G string to grab a 7th. The middle finger is longer and that much closer to the G string, so I'm going to use that instead even though it means using my middle finger twice in a row. And so on.

Quite honestly, the music I'm paid to pay isn't fast enough where the supposed speed advantages of strict alternating technique really pay off anyway.

K2000 · #14 06-19-2009, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Mother

"But to what end"?
That is up to you.
Sounds like your teacher is giving you good advice and setting you up for strong advancement.
You may rake in the future, you may play with one finger, you might use many interesting methods, but not unlike a building, without a sound foundation, it may fail.
Your teacher is giving you a foundation that will in time allow you to determine what works best in every situation.

My $0.02

BM

This seems right to me... the more precise your playing, the better you'll be prepared to play highly demanding passages in the future. However, that kind of music may not be where your interests are, as a musician. But in general, it's great if you are a much better player than your material demands (if that makes sense). For example, if you are able to play highly technical prog, and you are in a punk rock band, chances are you will shine. Be better than you need to be, and you will stand out.

I would say stick with your teacher for a while -- at 8 months you've just started playing really, and it sounds like you are making good progress.

wysiwyg248 · #15 06-19-2009, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Nate

I've been playing for about a year now and taking lessons for eight months. I've made a lot of progress and seem to have a decent ear, but have reached something of an impasse with my bass teacher. He's an excellent teacher, invoking just the right combination of fear and encouragement, and extremely fastidious about technique. This is definately a good thing because it instills a discipline I wouldn't have if learning out of a book.

Problem is this - he has a freakishly good right hand technique. He never fails to alternate - ever. He never rakes. He basically never makes a mistake and wants to impart that kind of discipline in me. But it takes soooo much effort for me to keep my IM alternating without a hitch, and I'll usually be pulled up and told to start again if I make more than a couple of mistakes. (Which is most times since I only manage about 90% accuracy on this) My focus is naturally on my left hand, and I have difficulty focusing on both, so I have to play much slower to avoid those right hand mistakes. As you can probably imagine, its extremely frustrating to be told to stop playing in the middle of a song or scale demo despite hitting all notes correctly.

Bass Guitar for Dummies effectively seems to recommend raking. I've trusted my teacher thus far because he is an excellent player and took me from beginner to intermediate very quickly, but I want to move forward in my tuition without the endless exercises in maintaining my IM alternation.

Just want to know people's feelings. To what extent is it worth pursuing this? I can understand that he would want me to start off on the right foot and master excellent technique early, but to what end? Does it really matter that much?

It is entirely up to you. Do you want to play in a Garage band doing covers and three notes songs?
Seems like you are ready to do that.
Are you looking for more elaborated music?
Maybe a bit of daily practice will get you there.
Do you want to play to the limit of your possibilities?
Sounds like your teacher is giving you the tools to achieve that.

I heard many stories about teachers, seems like you found a pretty good one. Just decide where you want to go next.

Bluesbreaker5 · #16 06-19-2009, 04:49 PM

My finger playing is very unusual. I use my index on the "root" string and my middle on the remaining strings. Sounds wrong and limiting, but it works for me and accuracy and speed is never a problem.

Blue Nate · #17 06-21-2009, 07:30 PM

Thanks for the advice guys. Sounds like there are a lot of different opinions on this topic. I don't really have a choice in the matter I guess, got to do what my sensei tells me, but mambo4 probably said it best with "You don't have to alternate but you ought to be able to."

I'll just have to stick at it. Hopefully the muscle memory will kick in eventually and I'll wonder why I ever found it so hard.

Cheers guys.

suckyplayer · #18 06-21-2009, 10:28 PM

practice both. it's good exercise, and it's not like it'll make you a worse player.

totallyfrozen · #19 06-21-2009, 11:00 PM

Yes. It's important to learn. Have you ever heard of Bruce Lee the kung fu master? He once said that he had mastered the style he was studying so that he could fight with NO style. In other words, once you master something THEN you can modify or discard it because by that time you will understand what you are doing. It will become natural and effortless to you.

You're questioning whether or not it's worth the effort to learn to be precise and disciplined? Don't be a sissy about it. Just slow down and make yourself do what you have to do to learn it RIGHT. Otherwise, what are you even bothering with lessons for? What are you paying this guy for?

Yes, it's important to learn the right technique. If you don't learn it now...LATER...you will not be as fast as you want to be. Be careless and sloppy now...and you'll play careless and sloppy later.

------------------
wow! I came back and read this later and, man, I sure sound like a cranky ol' bstrd. LOL! Don't take it the wrong way. The point is that I think it's very worth the effort even if it seems like a pain at the time.

JimmyM · #20 06-21-2009, 11:08 PM

Is your teacher Dave LaRue? That's what he did to me when I took lessons from him. And to this day I thank him profusely for not letting me rake. When you play difficult passages with a lot of string skipping, you will be glad he busted your balls about raking. If you want to rake on your own time, that's fine. But when you practice your lessons, you should do strict alternation. There isn't a bass player alive who does well with strict alternation that isn't glad he/she got it down. But if you always rake instead, you'll never realize the benefits of SA.