ANOTHER metal technique question

I listen to tons of metal, among other things. A lot of the metal I listen to is black metal and extreme metal with blast beats and/or lightning tempo.

My issue is this: If they're playing finger style, (which quite a few of them do) I can't see HOW most of these bassists can keep up. Yes, there are a few greats, and we all know them, and I'm familar with three finger technique and use it sometimes, although I'm no master at it. But really, I suspect that a lot of these guys are playing sixteenth notes to everyone's 32 notes and allowing themselves to be buried in the mix so no one notices.

This is not a 'How can I play fast like that?' question. My goal is never to simply play fast, but to play well and do what the song requires. I'm just curious.

[alangoldstein]

its hard

sometimes u have to use a pick. to match what guitarist is doing IF you want to do what he or she does.

i wont tho. ( i wont use a pick in my tunes ) unless its a hired session and thats what they pay me for.

for example dino c from fear factory was looking to audition a bassist and he said something like : to try out for divine heresy u have to use a pick and play at certain insane tempos and triple pick or quadruple whatever something or other.

if it makes u happy play half the speed of the guitarist with fingers. i do that sometimes. pick is not for me.

but like i said. money talks.

[alangoldstein]

also get into alex webster from cannibal corpse. he is a freeking machine with his fingers.....

[Sarbecue Boss]

Yes, playing 16th to the guitarist and drummers 32nds, especially during blasting sections happens frequently. reasonably, you cannot fingerstyle at those tempos, especially if you want to play with stamina and consistent volume. Really it is a judgment call, on what your going to play. Sometimes, it fits to play a bed of 16ths to the 32nds. Sometimes, unforunatly, it is practical to play 16ths to 32nds. And other times, for example, the break in ancient covenant, by the faceless, or heir apparent by opeth(both songs have similar sections, its a single, palm muted note alternate picked at 32nds for a sustained periods, with the kick drum hitting every note) it would be more fitting to me to break out the pick, and match the guitars. The reason, especially as a death/tech musician to be able to play proficiently with a pick is for the sake of the song. What I am constantly asking myself is "Would it benefit the song more to have a picked tone that can rhythmically match the guitar, or would it be better to set down a bed of bass".

Agreed with all of that, Sarbecue Boss. I practice with a pick just as much as fingerstyle because, well, why not be able to play with both? Plus, when I do have to play with a pick, I adjust my EQ as much as I can to match my fingerstyle sound, unless I want my pick playing to have a distinct sound itself. (Usually, that's when some distortion or overdrive is being used, at least for me.)

[TheoFly]

Murderface!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YS7NXRQXem4

[4bpauly]

i think it sounds good when bassists play 16ths instead... whatever helps to keep the song tight and sometimes it also helps make those songs "groove" a little better when the bass is playing a little bit under the drums

[Sarbecue Boss]

Originally Posted by jhan

I adjust my EQ as much as I can to match my fingerstyle sound, unless I want my pick playing to have a distinct sound itself. (Usually, that's when some distortion or overdrive is being used, at least for me.)

I cannot do this as much as I would like to because I am switching between pick and fingers on the fly, but for this purpose sansamp has put out a programmable three channel di for bass, so you can hit a pedal to chnge your tone to whatever you progrm.

Originally Posted by Sarbecue Boss

I cannot do this as much as I would like to because I am switching between pick and fingers on the fly, but for this purpose sansamp has put out a programmable three channel di for bass, so you can hit a pedal to chnge your tone to whatever you progrm.

Yeah, I would like to have this option.

[ErebusBass]

Personally, I gave up on fingerstyle in metal years ago for many reasons. First, for some reason I just play better with a pick. Second, I could never get tone that didn't get buried in the mix playing fingerstyle. Two guitars with heavy distortion can really drown you out. I like to poke out of the mix a little bit, and the crunch I get with a pick is perfect for that.

All that aside, it is common for the bass to play 16ths under the guitar/bass drum's 32nds.

[chanson]

Really if you want to keep up at fingerstlye, just practice. It may take a long time before you can play at fast, consistent speeds without getting tired, but practice will eventually get you there. How do you think drummers can double bass 16th/32nd notes at 200+ bpm for several minutes, several songs a night? They have been practicing their butts off for a long time.

[DoomandHeavy]

You could always try Doom. But seriously, like chanson said practice like crazy, also try learning some faster Black Metal with your fingers. You could also ask Erlend Casperson, he has a video where he plays at 200 bpm with his fingers but he may be using four. Does anyone know if four fingers is faster, ive heard it is faster and ive also heard it isnt.

[Sarbecue Boss]

it depends really, on how much you practice, but the pinky, or at least mine, is -way- to short and skinny to be of comparable tone and volume to my other fingers

[tom once dead]

I use the 3 finger technique. Ive got that up to 16th notes at 200 bpm.

[Sarbecue Boss]

wow, just watched Erlend Casperson for the first time and it's imprssive. As far as tone goes it wouldn't work for me, but if your going to really go for the four finger technique, he seems like a good plyer to study

[MaskedJackal]

Erlend lurks around here aplenty...maybe he'll drop in on this thread.

[Implosion]

Originally Posted by DoomandHeavy

You could always try Doom. But seriously, like chanson said practice like crazy, also try learning some faster Black Metal with your fingers. You could also ask Erlend Casperson, he has a video where he plays at 200 bpm with his fingers but he may be using four. Does anyone know if four fingers is faster, ive heard it is faster and ive also heard it isnt.

Erlend Casperson has got a video where he plays 16th notes at 250 bpm with four fingers, it's insane.

Playing with four fingers is of course faster than playing with three fingers, due to the fact that there are more fingers producing the notes. The technique how-ever is harder to master. Origin's bass player Mike Flores uses a strumming technique when playing fast parts. There are videos on Youtube, it's an interesting technique that is on my stuff-to-learn list.

[ysand]

Originally Posted by Implosion

Playing with four fingers is of course faster than playing with three fingers, due to the fact that there are more fingers producing the notes.

That's not true.
I can play faster with 2 fingers than others with 3.
Stick to a technique and practice teh hell out of it.
Adding more fingers isn't (always) the answer.

[Ramstien]

3 or 4 finger technique does help. Check out "Panic Attack" by Dream Theater.

Your thumb is your best friend, and I'm surprised I don't see more metal bassists using their thumb. I use a pick type grip, without the pick, and I can hold 16ths at about 250 BPM if need be, and I wouldn't even consider myself a contender for greatest metal bassist or anything-else bassist on Talkbass or anywhere else. Try it, it takes some practice, but you might like the results.



[edit: just noticed, before you ask, my TB handle did NOT come from this technique. I had this TB handle long before I discovered the thumb trick]