Arthritis starts in your teens & 20s! Info inside.

[Dave Muscato]

Hey folks,

I see a lot of threads in this forum about pain, especially in joints. I thought it would be a good idea to address this and have info together in one place, so that our fellow TBers can avoid the suffering of losing or diminishing their ability to play, whether because of back pain, joint pain in your hands, or even just pain in your knees etc that prevent you from gigging and hauling gear.

My mother started developing joint pain at a much younger age than she anticipated (in her 40s). She's a doctor, and knows more about this than your average joe, and she told me not to make the mistake of considering arthritis as an affliction of the elderly only - arthritis eventually affects ALL people (provided you live long enough) and begins in your teens and 20s.

As a musician, protecting my joints, especially in my hands and back, rates up there with protecting my ears from damage. As another example, a friend of mine is in his 30s and because of various labor-related joint issues, his back can't support a solid-body guitar anymore. He has to either sit or play hollow-bodies and he's none too-thrilled about it. Don't wait to address joint deterioration.

Osteoarthritis is simply the deterioration of cartilage in your joints, which may or may not be painful (and isn't at first, even though the damage is ongoing). This deterioration cannot be avoided completely - it is a symptom of aging - but it can be slowed, and the pain can be delayed, even in terms of decades, with proper attention to the issue.

Dr Jason Theodosakis (M.D.) is one of the world's leading specialists in preventive medicine and author of several books on the subject. Here is some info he provided for a CBS story about osteoarthritis, where he spelled out some preventive measures young people can take:

1. Lose weight, or at least avoid gaining. Extra pounds are awful on joints: They increase the burden on them, and have a destructive metabolic effect. A chemical related to obesity upsets the balance between the buildup and breakdown of cartilage, meaning the natural degradation of cartilage moves more quickly than the renewal process that's supposed to restore it. The effect is a net loss that, over time, becomes osteoarthritis.

2. Do exercise that doesn't damage joints. That includes low-impact biking and swimming, along with yoga and pilates, plus walking if it's not too fast, and weightlifting, as long as it's not stressful. If you walk, make sure you have comfortable shoes, and try to walk on surfaces that are relatively flat. Asphalt is better than concrete.

3. Watch your biomechanics. How you lift and carry various objects, or perform physical tasks, including playing sports, can make a big difference to the health of your joints. The back is the most obvious part of the body that can be strained, but nearly all joints can be damaged by poor biomechanics. For instance, something as simple as gardening can put stress on joints if you dig at the dirt with your fingers instead of using a proper tool. Proper mechanics while playing sports will do far more than improve your athletic performance. It also minimizes strain on joints from head to toe that can manifest later as osteoarthritis.

4. Prevent and treat injuries. Too many ankle sprains, or insufficient treatment following sprains, can put you on the road to arthritis in your ankles. And once you alter the mechanics of your ankles to compensate for that, you can begin a process where the mechanics of other joints are also altered, through your knees up to your hips, etc. So, take care of your injuries, whether to the ankles, knees, or elsewhere.

5. Taking supplements is also a potentially useful step. Glucosamine and chondroitin both show evidence of helping cartilage avoid deterioration, at least to a degree. There are also two relatively new supplements that have shown promise in trials: A.S.U (unsaponifiable part of avocado and soybean), and hyaluronic acid (H.A.). A recent study, Theodosakis points out, suggested that those supplements had no positive effect on joint pain. That, he asserts, is arguable but, even if true, mitigation of pain isn't necessarily the same thing as diminishing the deterioration of cartilage. Theodosakis adds that evidence is strong that both supplements help diminish deterioration, is a positive result even if they don't relieve pain. That positive is, he says, especially noteworthy in younger people, for whom pain is not an issue yet, but for whom preventing deterioration is.

----

There is some evidence that copper (the mineral) can help with joint pain. Don't start taking any supplements without first talking to your doctor. Some people choose to wear copper jewelry in the hopes that the mineral will be absorbed through the skin. A study from the '70s showed a copper bracelet to be slightly more effective than fake copper placebo bracelets, but frankly, your body is much better at absorbing minerals in digestion than through the skin, and peanuts are much more effective (not to mention cheaper) if you really want more copper in your body.

Pain medication can raise your threshold of pain and prevent you from feeling the problem, but doesn't address joint deterioration itself.

There are much more effective things you can do besides wearing copper and taking pain pills, like taking a multivitamin and/or glucosamine, and exercising.

If you're not already taking a multivitamin every day, consider it for all sorts of reasons, including that most contain copper and other things that are good for your joints. The sooner you start paying attention to what your body needs, the better. Modern diets have come a long, but most of us still aren't getting all the chemicals we ideally should have through food alone. Remember that this is a long-term problem, and taking a multivitamin for a few weeks is not going to do much in the long run, and you shouldn't give up just because you don't notice any difference now - the difference will be there in 40, 30, or even 20 years.

Again, talk to your doc about what is best for you body and your situation - don't start taking a pill because you read about it online!

I hope this helps, folks. If we want to continue playing music well into our years, we need to take care of our bodies now.

More info:

http://www.amazon.com/Arthritis-Cure.../dp/0312190298

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/...n2911877.shtml

http://arthritis.about.com/gi/dynami.../Coppercs.html

http://www.arthritis.org/

Regards,

[Sean S]

Thanks for this, Dave. I'm only 21, and have at times noticed pain in several different joints. It doesn't help that there seems to be something congenital about it, since both my mother and grandmother have/had bad knees (from deterioration).

[fullrangebass]

Good info Dave. Arthritis along with RSI are two major problems for most people and prevention is by far superior to symptomatic relief of pain and discomfort. Treatment is not always a possibility

[Dave Muscato]

Regarding RSI (repetitive strain injury), that's something else that comes up here a lot...

IF IT HURTS, STOP PLAYING. I can't say that enough.

If your technique is good, playing bass should be 1) painless and 2) effortless. If it hurts, you are doing something wrong and should stop right away. Never "play through the pain." It's not worth risking/causing permanent damage.

[JimmyM]

I was talking to a guy yesterday who had quit playing bass for a year because of rheumatoid arthritis. He drops 40 lbs. and starts exercising and taking supplements, and now he's asymptomatic and plays his butt off. So your advice is spot on. This post should definitely be stickied.

[LavendarSunrise]

Absolutely. Great post brother. Just one more thing I'd like to add (kind of relevant) - I work for a chiropractor, and he says that, in regard to walking, it is best to wear hard-soled shoes, and focus on your heel strike while walking. His research has shown that walking in such a manner improves skeletal allignment (and thus, to a degree, joint health, particularly in the back). Walking in this manner has helped me straighten my slightly forward-slouching posture that previously resulted from playing bass and has reduced my knee pain from old sports injuries. Also, a solid heel strike generates piezoelectric current in your bones, which stimulates your osteoblasts and osteoclasts (bone cells) to lay down new calcium, thus reducing the risk of osteoporosis.

[Dave Muscato]

Do you have a link to the research? I'd like to read more about it.

[lomo]

Good info, but I must add that the data regarding glucosamine and chondroitin sulphate are mixed/equivocal.

[Dave Muscato]

I didn't say glucosamine was a good investment; I just said it's more effective than wearing a copper bracelet

Staying fit with low-impact exercise is the best thing to do. Beyond that, talk to your doc. There are *so* many reasons to be in shape besides osteoarthritis, though... Diabetes, hypertension, coronary artery disease, stroke, sleep apnea, fatty liver disease, gallbladder disease, even cancer are all linked to obesity (and, of course, the obvious psychosocial effects, and just plain day-to-day comfort).

Take care of your body and it'll take care of you. Don't play through the pain, use a dolly for your cabs and heavy amps, lift with your legs & not with your back, sit up straight, etc, and you can be playing bass well into your 90s

[mikeypbass]

great info thanks!

i want to be able to play long enough to finally get good on upright, which should take a looooonnnnnnggggg time

[CapnSev]

I'm in my mid 20s, and it already hit me about 9 months ago. I found out I had a mild case of arthritis, and had to sell a 4 string Warwick I owned because of it. The narrow neck width, and close spacing really hurt my fingers and wrist to the point of not wanting to play much at all.

Now I:

A: Warm up much more than I used to.
B: Play 5 strings or P bass neck width 4s.
C: Watch my daily wrist movements better.
D: Hike up the strap.

It hardly bothers me at all anymore.

[Darkstrike]

Yup, great info in this thread, I've had Arthritis since I was 14(22 now), not a major case really, I get a little, and I do mean little, after a long, hard work day. The cold seems to affect my fingers more now than a few years ago, espically after I had a year long job working in sub-zero to minus forty degrees. The only time it affects my bass playing is if I do medium to big slides to higher pitches with my left index, I get a shooting pain through my whole finger, and into my hand a little.

I'll be following this thread a lot, there are things I should be doing that I don't, and things that now will change.
One thing is, I like to play at a medium strap lenght, some would probably call it low, but I used to play much lower. I know high would be better, but I tried it, and with the medium to high register it was ok, but the low notes were too far away, I felt too choked up, it also lay uncomfortably against my stomach, so I'll just have to live with that.

Thanks for all the tips guys, this kind of stuff is why I love TalkBass.

[OtterOnBass]

Dave, for all of the great threads you write, I think Talkbass should be paying you. At least reimbursing your subscriptions. Really.

I'd like to point out that according to the articles in Runner's World, regularly exercising by running on hard surfaces actually strengthens the joints. My friend told me about an article he read (he's a scientist that runs) with x-rays of swimmers' knees and runners' knees. The runners knees were consistently much thicker. Anecdotally, when I started running, the sidewalk made my knees hurt, but the street didn't (concrete v. asphalt). Now the sidewalk is fine for me.

SO, don't let the threat of joint injury prevent taking up running. The key is being consistent, just like muscle-strengthening.

[ksandvik]

Originally Posted by OtterOnBass

Dave, for all of the great threads you write, I think Talkbass should be paying you. At least reimbursing your subscriptions. Really.

I'd like to point out that according to the articles in Runner's World, regularly exercising by running on hard surfaces actually strengthens the joints. My friend told me about an article he read (he's a scientist that runs) with x-rays of swimmers' knees and runners' knees. The runners knees were consistently much thicker. Anecdotally, when I started running, the sidewalk made my knees hurt, but the street didn't (concrete v. asphalt). Now the sidewalk is fine for me.

SO, don't let the threat of joint injury prevent taking up running. The key is being consistent, just like muscle-strengthening.

Actually, my wife was running on the sideway and hurt her legs, so she switched over to the street as per recommendations to other runners. Most of them I see every day run on the streets, now I know why... --Kent

[Iv@N]

after long practice sessions the joint in my little finger of the fretting hand hurts and i have to stop playing for 30 mins maybe to play again. im 15 at the moment. should i worry and see a doctor? thanks

[jsingles]

i would like to bring up a point in this thread....

so, CRACKING YOUR JOINTS?? is this really horrible for them? I would like to clear this mystery up for good.

[gweimer]

I don't have a link, but I did see an article in the past year or so that stated that cracking your knuckles doesn't cause any real damage.
To the subject at hand, Jeff Berlin gave me the best advice I ever got when he used to answer questions here. I had found that over the years, it was getting harder and harder to do a full night. What he replied was this:

1. Play lighter. Don't fight the strings.
2. Get lighter gauge strings. There really isn't enough distinct difference in the tone between a thick gauge E and a lighter one.

With that advice, I went back to my original strings of choice - light gauge, with an E usually between .098 and .100. I even use the TI Rounds with the .089 E.
I turned up my volume a touch, and backed off on my fingering. It has made a world of difference. If you want to watch real efficiency of motion in action, watch Billy Sheehan some time. I don't always like what he does, but his technique makes everything look so simple. He has all these subtle little movements in the way he plays. It looks effortless.

[ksandvik]

Originally Posted by gweimer

I don't have a link, but I did see an article in the past year or so that stated that cracking your knuckles doesn't cause any real damage.
To the subject at hand, Jeff Berlin gave me the best advice I ever got when he used to answer questions here. I had found that over the years, it was getting harder and harder to do a full night. What he replied was this:

1. Play lighter. Don't fight the strings.
2. Get lighter gauge strings. There really isn't enough distinct difference in the tone between a thick gauge E and a lighter one.

With that advice, I went back to my original strings of choice - light gauge, with an E usually between .098 and .100. I even use the TI Rounds with the .089 E.
I turned up my volume a touch, and backed off on my fingering. It has made a world of difference. If you want to watch real efficiency of motion in action, watch Billy Sheehan some time. I don't always like what he does, but his technique makes everything look so simple. He has all these subtle little movements in the way he plays. It looks effortless.

Billy Sheehan plays with very heavy bottom string, 110 Rotosound, so maybe he indeed has to conserve his fingers when playing. But yes, I agree. The Sheehan instruction video has a section where he talks about the concepts of saving motion when playing, it makes sense (especially just now for me after a seven-hour marathon session at a club last night, phew....) --Kent

[Dave Muscato]

Originally Posted by OtterOnBass

Dave, for all of the great threads you write, I think Talkbass should be paying you. At least reimbursing your subscriptions. Really.

I'd like to point out that according to the articles in Runner's World, regularly exercising by running on hard surfaces actually strengthens the joints. My friend told me about an article he read (he's a scientist that runs) with x-rays of swimmers' knees and runners' knees. The runners knees were consistently much thicker. Anecdotally, when I started running, the sidewalk made my knees hurt, but the street didn't (concrete v. asphalt). Now the sidewalk is fine for me.

SO, don't let the threat of joint injury prevent taking up running. The key is being consistent, just like muscle-strengthening.

Haha, well, I get a lot out of Talkbass, too, but thanks!

I have read about that sort of reaction. I was watching this show on the Discovery channel called "Fight Science," where they used all sorts of fancy equipment to study martial artists' bodies, and also their bodies while they were fighting. It's pretty amazing stuff, what the body can do - but that is something they talked about a lot on there, also: how repetitive training can actually strengthen bones & joints if done properly. A trained boxer can take a much harder hit than an ordinary person and not break a bone, just because of that gradual, intentional "toughening" of the body. It's pretty cool stuff.

http://channel.nationalgeographic.co...geographic.com

[thehangingmist]

i am glad i read this! thanks again dave