bad timing

[steve66]

Originally Posted by Poor Tom

Can I ask about the part that says make sure your drummer is not following the guitarist? Why is this? I ask because I happen to know for a fact that this is what my drummer does, he has told me himself....

One good way to tell is that when you get to a chorus, the tempo speeds up. The problem is that most drummers either play along to the vocals or the guitar and have a hard time with the bass.

If you are having this problem, you really need some 1:1 time with your drummer to sort out the material and get him use to listening to the bass parts.

[phatbass]

I don't get gigs 'coz I play fast. I get gigs 'coz I can lock the music down tight. This means locking with the drummer.

My not-so-humble opinion is that song tempo is NOT a committee thing. The drummer is the one who sets and maintains the tempo and EVERYONE else gets their time from him/her. The drummer should NOT be getting their tempo from someone else in the band. Then it's up to the Bass player to lock in with the drummer.

And don't confuse having solid tempo with stifling the groove by not allowing it to breathe...

[jgroh]

I also agree that the tapping your foot thing is an excellent idea and how I learned from my first teacher. Its basically your own metronome and helped me develop good timing from the get go. Just start out tapping 1,2,3,4 and then play on your bass 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and (I know, sounds very basic) but then you can develop that into all sorts of timing drills with 8th 16th and 32nd notes (or more). I find that I do it alot of times without thinking about it and especially when playing with my band when the drummer is doing a fill and I need to keep the correct time.

[Thankful birds]

Originally Posted by phatbass

The drummer is the one who sets and maintains the tempo and EVERYONE else gets their time from him/her. The drummer should NOT be getting their tempo from someone else in the band. Then it's up to the Bass player to lock in with the drummer.

+1 . Every band I've ever been in has one rule- for the duration of the song the drummer is right. You can talk about wrong parts later; but if during a gig the drummer speeds up, slows down, jumps ahead, etc. you follow that drummer.

With regard to timing, it is one of the earliest things that can and should be practiced. I agree with everyone else, get a metronome. Practice playing quarter notes, then eighth, then sixteenth. Also, get play along with cds with simple bass lines. I am not a big AC/DC fan, but Phil Rudd will improve your timing.

[unclejane]

Originally Posted by Thankful birds

+1
With regard to timing, it is one of the earliest things that can and should be practiced. I agree with everyone else, get a metronome. Practice playing quarter notes, then eighth, then sixteenth. Also, get play along with cds with simple bass lines. I am not a big AC/DC fan, but Phil Rudd will improve your timing.

One more thing on the metronome - one reason I think the metronome is neglected is because playing along with one is so mind-numbingly boring....

Consider something that'll do something musical like a drum machine.

I have a boss loop station which is turning out to be absolute heaven for practicing. It has a bunch of built in drum tracks that make playing along with it enjoyable. Finally, you can record your playing and instantly play it back. This is another valuable tool for debugging problems in your playing.

Mine is picking up all kinds of dragging/rushing notes and all kinds of other stuff I hadn't known was a problem...

a loop station is a little more than a metronome but way more fun to use and practice with.

LS

[Joel S.]

Originally Posted by Poor Tom

Can I ask about the part that says make sure your drummer is not following the guitarist? Why is this? I ask because I happen to know for a fact that this is what my drummer does, he has told me himself....

Kick him in the kneecaps.

The drummer should never follow the guitarists, their time is usually horrid but they can get away with it. If he follows the guitarist for audio cues on changes, that's fine, but if he's gonna follow anyone rhythmically and from a tempo standpoint, it should be you.

[Vincent P]

If you have a wall clock like any of those big round cheapy units purchased from WalMart with the second hand, this makes a great metronome at 60 bpm.

[locolobo85]

Kill three birds with 1 stone.

Get a Zoom B1 and get a drum machine, effects and tuner all in one.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Joel S.

Kick him in the kneecaps.

The drummer should never follow the guitarists, their time is usually horrid but they can get away with it. If he follows the guitarist for audio cues on changes, that's fine, but if he's gonna follow anyone rhythmically and from a tempo standpoint, it should be you.

I don't know that I agree with that. Part of the Rolling Stones' unique sound is that Charlie Watts ALWAYS followed Keith Richards, which made him play slightly behind the beat and gave the rhythm section a sound you don't hear out of anyone else. So I think a drummer should be versatile enough to not only set the tempo but also follow a guitarist when need be. My regular band has a drummer that I wish would do that more often. He's a great drummer, but he refuses to ever play behind the beat, which is death in funk music.

[bassybill]

Good point from Jimmy. It bugs me just a little when people equate constant tempo with "the ideal rhythm section". Sure, you need to be able to do it when required, but pushing the tempo or laying back on it is one of the key ways to put some feeling into music. Some people seem to think that a click track is the only way to lay down good bass and drums, and that frequently just isn't the case.

[Rudreax]

I always thought that being in complete control of how the tempo goes in a song (being able to shift it behind or in front of the beat, for example) was what could be considered the ideal rhythm section.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Rudreax

I always thought that being in complete control of how the tempo goes in a song (being able to shift it behind or in front of the beat, for example) was what could be considered the ideal rhythm section.

Well, there really is no ideal rhythm section. I've heard some of the most limited musicians on earth make terrific rhythm sections. And I've heard some of the greatest musicians on earth make a rhythm section that makes me feel absolutely nothing when I hear it.

[lemur821]

Originally Posted by unclejane

One more thing on the metronome - one reason I think the metronome is neglected is because playing along with one is so mind-numbingly boring....

Consider something that'll do something musical like a drum machine.

Playing with a metronome is about providing the music yourself... not trying to out-boring the click.

[EclecticElectrk]

yea. you can practice all day long, but playing with a group is a new experience and you have to do it alot to get good at it. the first time its really awkward and can sound preeeeeeety bad. but you'll get better. its like any technique to learn. you have to practice.

[Bass_masta16]

I was the same way, I could play songs just fine by myself, and to the track, but once I got into a band, I felt it hard to tell if I was off time or not, or if I messed up, there was no way I would be able to continue.
It will get better as time goes on, just keep practicing and you'll be a pro in no time.

Rock on!

[mutedeity]

Originally Posted by unclejane

One more thing on the metronome - one reason I think the metronome is neglected is because playing along with one is so mind-numbingly boring....

Consider something that'll do something musical like a drum machine.

I have a boss loop station which is turning out to be absolute heaven for practicing. It has a bunch of built in drum tracks that make playing along with it enjoyable. Finally, you can record your playing and instantly play it back. This is another valuable tool for debugging problems in your playing.

Mine is picking up all kinds of dragging/rushing notes and all kinds of other stuff I hadn't known was a problem...

a loop station is a little more than a metronome but way more fun to use and practice with.

LS

On drum machines, they are fine to play along with if you have a well developed sense of where the beat is already. Drum machines have one huge flaw in developing a good sense of timing. They imply accents and therefore influence directly the way a person plays.

I always recommend that when playing with a metronome you set the pulse to a constant without accented beats at first. That way you are developing a good sense of constant internal timing.

If that's too boring for people then consider how boring it will be when no decent players want to play with you because you can't keep in time well.

[steve66]

Originally Posted by monkeyboydance

disrespectful post edited out.

IMO, What you are describing is what good bass players and drummers hope to achieve. John Bonham and John Paul Jones worked great together. The drummer keeps the tempo. It makes sense that since you are the glue keeping the bottom and melody together, your drummers second focus should be on bass. The bass player has the ability to change the feel of a song. You both are work together. If the guitarist drops out , no big deal. If the bass player drops out, the bottom drops out. A bass solo always sounds good with a drummer backing. A guitar solo doesn't. I have been playing drums for over 25 yrs, I never focused on the guitarist. I did however focus on a keyboard player because of the bass parts.

[Diddii]

Practice Raggea music... lots of timing there.