Bass drum and bass line - how close?

[jtcdrums]

Hi folks.

I've just joined, and have to be up-front and state that I'm a drummer who has come here to learn from the bass perspective what works and what doesn't, so that I can become a better player.

One thing that has always interested me is how closely a bass drum part and a bass guitar part can interlock without sounding too plodding. My band plays some shuffle based tracks, and oftentimes I like to do a triplet 'bounce' thing on the bass drum, to drive the music along, but equally sometimes I feel that just picking up the 'catches' and offbeats on the bass drum creates a better feel. By matching every bass note with a bass drum note, there is a sense of solidity but the swing goes. Equally, too little and sometimes it feels disjointed.

I'd be interested in the bass players' perspective on this.

john

[stingray56funk]

Gotta lock in with the drums and keep it in the pocket to be a good rhythm section. The best drum and bass has always locked in...whether on every single kick note beat...or dancing around the kick and snare...the bass must be locked in with the groove no matter what genre. That is my opinion and that is how I play.

[jtcdrums]

Care to elaborate? How do you find that 'elusive lock-in'? Do you prefer to sit back on the beat or are you a more up-front, driving bass player?

Very interested to hear your thoughts!

[jayp883]

For our drummer and me it's pretty what the tune calls for. We have an "understanding" that we are NOT gonna do what isn't neccessary and we aren't going to take away from what the singer is trying to convey to our listeners. Some tunes we drive like crazy, (together), and others we're just as relaxed and "in the pocket" as pepperonis on a pizza. Hope this made sense to ya.

[coolant]

I'm not the most proficient bassist, but I try my best to make sure the feel of the drums is apparent in my bass line.

About those off-beat fills, I generally pick the most emphasized note in the drum beat to build my line off of, which is usually the bass-drum (but not always). So sometimes those off-beat catches with the bass-drum don't necessarily get incorporated into my line. I think a bassist response to those sort of catches also depends on what the melody is doing.

[Chunk-O-Funk]

Good question and one that seems to pop up here from time to time, but always from the bassist perspective of course.


Personally, I like to approach the idea of what the bass line will be from two perspectives. It can either play with the drummer, or what I think of as "locking in" with the bass drum pattern, or playing against the bass drum pattern. I learned to think about this concept on a more conscious level a long time ago from a John Patitucci VHS tape. Wouldn't you know it, it's on youtube! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldiej...eature=related

As far as playing behind the beat, on the beat or ahead of the beat, the style of the song will usually dictate that. Best example I can give is from a Blues tune. There is usually some verbal communication on what kind of Blues song it will be beforehand and that will let me know if I should be doing a shuffle (behind the beat) or swing (ahead of the beat). Of course that is the two most obvious examples and there are more variations than that. Anyway, I like to think of that as the "feel" of the song and it's something that the drummer and bassist have to be together on. At least in most if not all popular music. Unless you're going for some Avant Garde, or Free Jazz style it's best that the bass and drums are on the same page as far as the feel and tempo goes.

In short, that's how I look at it. If someone says "lock in with the drummer" I will pay more attention to what the bass drum pattern is. The style or feel of the song should always be "locked in".

[JKT]

This is a great topic and one that is not discussed enough for at least for the benefit of younger players.

bass and drum lock-in can occur by virtue of synchronous playing between bass drum and bass note or the space between say, the kick and snare. However it is accomplished it begins within the mind of both drummer and bassist. Without the will of both, it will never really happen the way it should.

JKT

[Marcury]

It's as others have said variable and either or. Sometimes I want to lock in sometimes I want to dance around. Problem is a lot of drummers have really weak bass drum chops and it makes it hard to get anything going.

[T-MOST]

A "lock" usually comes when the bass drum and the bass line coincide on 2 out of 4 beats (usually the 2 and 4). That creates the Sync that is referred to as a "lock".

[gweimer]

I have an odd style, or at least that's what I say. My right hand follows the drums, the left follows the song. I somehow manage to melt the two together. I try to walk the line between the two. It's always essential to lock down the foundation of the song with the drummer. I also think it's important to support the song, and that sometimes calls for some expression when there are gaps that aren't being filled.

[J.D.B.]

Essentially it's the accent. The bass player takes his basic accent idea from the bass drum or vice versa. Not terribly complicated in Rock and Roll. Bass player+bass drum= essential "groove", or "lock". In Jazz the relationship is a whole 'nother ball of wax. The bass player "drives the bus", the drummer, if he knows what's good for himself, observes this and doesn't "step on any toes". Much lighter right foot on the typical jazz drummer.
Josh

[Lobster11]

You might be interested in Ed Friedland's very cool book, "Bass Grooves." (On amazon.com it has the "search inside" feature, so you can actually check it out pretty thoroughly online.) It is written for bass players, of course, but it is all about the interplay between drums and bass. He starts by teaching how to program a drum machine, and then focuses on playing particular bass grooves against particular drum grooves in various styles. I should think it would be every bit as useful and interesting for a drummer as for a bass player, especially for one interested in a bass player's perspective.

[makaky]

Originally Posted by jtcdrums

Care to elaborate? How do you find that 'elusive lock-in'? Do you prefer to sit back on the beat or are you a more up-front, driving bass player?

Very interested to hear your thoughts!

I think what Stingray mean by Lock-in is the perfect timing of the bass and drum. They have to be like one. When the bass drum and bass have their attacks in perfect timming they actualy make one instrument.

[BuffaloBass]

Simple put, when you see a live show, and the kick meshes with the bassline every few counts, what does it sound like!? Tight. I;ve even seen "marginal" bassists locally, that soudned boss sicne the kick drum was heavily amped. SO there, a drumemr can cover up a "grooveless" bassist, to some extent.

We switched drummers about a year ago. New drummer had much better chops adn confidence than the old. I had to redo a few of the basslines in deference to him, since he found a different "pulse" to some of the tunes. ( this are originals)

I tend to stare at the drummers kick foot or the front of the kick to get a definite sense of how the drummer is timing it. If I cant hear it. Sometimes a drummer doesnt have a definte kick groove ) or ina jazz peice )so I latch onto the snare, or even the crashes - but it has to be SOMETHING repating itself in the kit.

Remember, the bass lives in the world between precussion and melody. It is up to you, the drummer,and us, the bass players to set the whole groove and pulse of the song. we have to have some common "stops in time". Niether of us does it well enough alone. We are a team.

The one differnce in bass and drums is that for us, the bassist, to realy make the groove palpable to the listener, we actually have to be accenting something "off time" , i./e, and the 1-2-3, but might be the 1-e-AND, if you get my drift. a FUNKY feel doesnt happen on the 1 to 4 counts. It happens between them.

go to www.dougjohns.com and view the lesson where Doug talks of working with the kit. Here: http://www.myspace.com/dougjohns

[DWBass]

Originally Posted by jtcdrums

Care to elaborate? How do you find that 'elusive lock-in'? Do you prefer to sit back on the beat or are you a more up-front, driving bass player?

Very interested to hear your thoughts!

It's very easy for a bassist to lock in with a drummer who concentrates on grooving and not transitioning or changing up the groove every 4 bars! For example, listen to JR Robinson laying down Michael Jackson's 'Billy Jean'! Solid and steady! Or Jeff Porcaro laying down that shuffle groove on 'Rosanna'!! Simple, steady and zero over playing! There is no need for any musicians to try and show off every chop he/she knows on any song!

[DWBass]

I'd like to add that my experience with some Rock oriented & Urban Gospel drummers has been less than ideal! If you are a gospel drummer, I'd like to offer this advice. Keep it simple! It is not about YOU and what chops YOU have. Play what's best for the song! That 'triplet' kick thing you mentioned is really not needed. If you provide a solid grooving backbeat, the rest will fall into place! There's nothing worse than different instrumentalists fighting to find a common ground when there is no foundation to fall upon!

[jtcdrums]

Thanks for the comments, guys. Here's an example of where I feel my own band is going wrong - it's an early take of a new song, with 'stand-in' lyrics (which we've used to 'sketch out' the shape of the vocal in advance of actually finishing the lyrics). Problem is, I don't think it's tight enough - it was admittedly multitracked, with drums going down to a scratch recording then bass and vocals overdubbed, but still sounds like it is clicked.

Anyway, here's the link if you're interested (mp3):
http://www.oktapod.com/uploads/funkwit.mp3

...I do wonder if some of it is down to it being tightly clicked and the way we recorded it though - the bass player wasn't present when I laid down the drums, and neither was I present when he laid down his bass track, and maybe therein lies a problem. Of course, maybe we're not accomplished enough at working this way...

[BuffaloBass]

The problem is quite simple JTC, that bass line should be slapped. kidding...

its a cool tune, y'all sound good, but I hear ya on tight...

If I may,,, in the begining the bass lines sounds like it "lags" on the fifth/fourth change. And thats only because the bass partially fills the space only. It should either hit only the priamry beat, and completely omit the lead in note, ( jsut ba - ba instead of ba - d-ba ) OR follow the guitar more closely as in ba da ba bA! ). In my head I could do the ba d-ba , but it would be a quick hammer-on, much smaller time.

( actaullly I had heard the bassline as two articulations hammer-on/plucks right in there, but I wont funk it all up on ya)

I;m an amatuer, so sorry for the lack of music lingo. But I would either take a note out or add notes into that opening bassline, imho.

The other part that bothers me, is if a bass is on top of a floor tom roll, it really ought be right on top of the floor tom roll. You really cant counterpoint it, the frequences are too close, imho. So, at that point where its just drums on the floor tom and bass alone, the bass really needs to lock it down tight with your sticks on the tom. Has to. Otherwise it sounds messed. So my fingers need to be articulating in the same time space as your sticks, in fact, we need them to sound alike in time. Maybe not every note, but every other. I'll liste to it again.I'm not sure how frequently a bass note sounds simultaneously with a tom note, but it's not at all frequent enough.

If you guys wrote your lines out and superimposed them, you be able to graphically see what I;m hearing.

I wish I could do that. I'm just learing how to read the drummers music.

Good luck! I dig the tune. Get it tight!

[Steve]

I'm kinda of the opinion that the rhythm section properly done is a real three legged race.

The kick and the bass note gotta be there at the same time.

You can do different and maybe gain a little something but, you always end up loosing something as well.

There's a little more leeway in some of the more "outside" music but given the tune posted had I been the guy, I would have paid a lot closer attention to what the kick was doing.

I didn't have a problem with either part but the combination just wasn't working for my ears or my booty.

[Steve]

On second thought, I just took a run at your song.

First thing I heard was some issue between the kick and the guitar chop.

I couldn't find anything I liked that glued the guitar chop together with the kick.

Not that I'm God or anything but I can usually find something that works.