Bass drum and bass line - how close?

[Dave Hosking]

This is a good track with lots of potential!

To add energy, try recording the kick drum so it delivers a crisper attack, have the kick drum emphasize the vocalist's "da-da's" on the "and" of beats 2 and 3 (the rhythm guitar also does this), and play 16ths on the hi-hat, especially on the bass guitar/drum section.

It'll be more funk than shuffle, tho. Keep up the good work!

[JimmyM]

No offense to the rest of you, but I think I would quit playing bass if I felt like I had to be bonded to the drummer like glue. Some of the greatest bass lines have been from a bassist who ignores the kick pretty much completely. Jamerson, for one, had tons of basslines where he went nuts over a drummer holding the fort down. And even though I do lock with the kick sometimes because it works for a particular song, sometimes you need to throw the rulebook out of the window and try something a little more interesting than lockstepping.

[BuffaloBass]

None taken, and Absolutely!! but even if you "go nuts over the drummer", it should still groove to your ears, whereas it seems that the original poster , and I, are catching something a wee bit " un groovey", in the bass/drum mix he posted. Actually, the kick isnt very prnounced in that clip, and I think its more the bass/guitar phrasing. Although Jimmy, you listen to where the tune stops all but the floor tom and bass, and tell us if you'd play it differently. Its cool, but it needs to lock on the sticks more, imho.

But , really, I'm talkin' out me ear. Have no credentials. I either work with the kick, or really get completely out of its way it seems.

If the kick sits out there heavy in the mix, you have to be very MINDFUL of it. Sometimes you might lock on it, sometimes on a paradiddle, sometimes just on the hi hat ride, sometimes NUTIN'! Music is not one dimensional, single solution stuff man, fa sure.

Peace. out.

[PaulMacCnj]

I don't think of "locking in" as only following the kick & snare exactly. An example of where that works really well is a ballad number. The Kick----Kick-Kick----Snare <repeat> pattern with a Root----Root-Root---5th bassline sounds good. Now say that the ballad pattern is used for a I-IV-V progression. Sure, the R--R-R--5 pattern can be stuck to exclusively, but it sure sounds a lot more interesting to throw in some walking bass pattern for the chord changes. You're still locked-in meaning that the 4/4 timing is followed, but you've broken from the monotny of following the kick & snare on every beat throughout the song.

[Lalabadie]

The place where I feel there's a strange interaction is when the bass player plays the root at the same time you play your kick, and then you come back with another kick while he's still holding the note. It feels weird.

Otherwise, well he's just staying too low in my taste. Very low tone and no fancy high notes. The bass line often sounds afraid of the snare...

In my humble inexperienced bassist's opinion.

[BuffaloBass]

The other day, we do this original with a odd pulse and I;ve been having a hard time nailing the pulse of the song, so our drummer starts moving to a new pulse so I grabbed onto that. Literally his body undulations. Hey, it worked. Either way, as JKT said, the bassist and drummer need to be on the same sheet of music.

[chief ten beers]

Originally Posted by T-MOST

A "lock" usually comes when the bass drum and the bass line coincide on 2 out of 4 beats (usually the 2 and 4). That creates the Sync that is referred to as a "lock".

This is a subject that i've been trying to penetrate a little more closely.i'm mostly a guitarist trying to learn bass and have recently been studying a little bit about drumming.it seems to me some drummers do the kick on the one and the three.Is this technically wrong?should the kick be on the 2 and the 4 or does it depend on what style one is playing?i know that a lot of emphasis is put on the bass player to pay attention to the 2 and the 4 but what about drummers who's habit is to kick on the 1 and the 3?I hope i'm making sense but i'm a little unclear on this.the whole subject of bass and drum interplay is one i'm trying to understand at this point.

[mattsk42]

It can really be on wherever he wants it. It totally depends on the song and what he wants to do with it. Keep the replies coming, they're a good read. Especially comparing Jamerson to some of the modern players as far as "locking in". To me, Jamerson played all over the place, but also clicked in when he needed to.

[jtcdrums]

Thanks, guys, some great and intelligent comments.

To answer the issue of the bass drum sound - the drum in question was a small 18x14" jazz bass drum, with some dampening and a ported reso head. Which is to say that it's a softer 'thud' than a 'boom'. Though it could have been brought up in the mix.

The other thing to bear in mind about the track I posted (which was really just as an example) is the fact that it isn't finished - the drums and bass are all early takes (in fact, I might be mistaken but I think this is the first take of the drums, the first time in fact that I'd played this tune).

What I'm finding valuable in all of this, though, is the bassist perspective - and I thank you all for that.

More comments most welcome, of course!

[Jazzerbone]

I'll chime in with my perspective...

I'm mostly a jazz player. In jazz situations I usually don't focus on playing right with or against the bass drum as much as fitting into the whole kit. Sometimes it lines up with the bass drum and sometimes it doesn't. Latin beats tend to line up more in that sense than swing. That's cause in swing styles the bass drum has little importance. They do this thing called "feathering" the bass drum which means they just hit it really soft.

In other styles though, I focus heavily on what the bass drum is doing. Many modern pop styles hinge on the bass and bass drum lining up. It gives the music an extra drive. I tend to sacrifice my lines in these situations to the drummer to fit into what he is doing (can be a bad habit at times). I can play one song with three different drummers three different ways because each drummer would have a different approach. I'll also play very differently with a really good drummer than with a mediocre drummer. A good drummer can leave you with more head room to fool around, a bad drummer needs to be given direction and control.

I think the answer to all of this is pretty subjective when you consider all of the different styles of music. Yeah, Jamerson dances all around sometimes, but thats funk music. Set him up with a country band and see what he does then. (This is what makes studio playing so hard) It will be a very different approach. Even within country music you have to consider differences in style (Texas country, bluegrass, rockabilly). There just is'nt a "yes" or "no" answer to these type of things.

(here is where I start to wander away a little bit)

I have a student right now who is having a #@!! of a time playing at his church because his drummer is very inconsistant with the bass drum and with his patterns in general. The drummer is a good player (Texas 5A all state in HS) but he never just lays it out. He is always doing something to show off. BIG mistake for drummers and bassists alike. We are meat and potatoes, not front men. I'm off topic.

Anyways, his group never finds a good groove because the drummer is inconsistant and the bassist can't keep up with that. No bassist could very well. What do you do now? Follow the guitars? Make your own pattern and hope for the best? Heck if I know...

I played a gig with a piano player the other day, and we were finding grooves like never before. We were using a drum machine, and because it was consistant we could really lock in. I had never realized how "showy" our normal drummer really was until then.

With or against the bass drum? Not enough info. It depends on the style and situation heavily. I think it's important to take into consideration your role in that situation. How is your playing going to compliment the group as a whole the best? If the focus is on the singer, then stay out of his/her way. If playing exactly with the bass drum gets too busy and detracts from the whole, find something else.

I'm close to getting metaphysical here so I will quit.

G