Bass and Guitar soloing at same time.

[Dusty89]

My guitarist and I are researching this in-depth. I love guitar solos as much as he loves bass solos. At the same time, we realized that this is harder task than what one might think. As the bassist, I feel that I need to work harder on complimenting his solo than he does mine. I'm sure it's more my job than his, since the upper layer is free to roam as pleased. When I think of inspiration I look to Cream. Bruce and Clapton definitely had something special. The solos during their live version of "Crossroads," one of my favorite songs ever, is just magical. They move around each other in such a fashion that sounds amazing on the ears. I'd love some practical advice on the subject. Especially from those who have experience first hand. Thanks.

[40Hz]

Melodic invention always came easy to me so I tend to think in countermelodies when assembling a bassline.

Best approach might be to play musical games with each other when you practice or jam.

Toss melody lines back and forth, play follow the leader, do "call & response" or hocketing exercises - and maybe really start listening to Bach and other Baroque composers.

Modern music is chordal and 'vertical.' Baroque was primarily 'linear' and polyphonic - so these composers got good at having four or five melody lines going at the same time. Once you start hearing it in action it will make more sense to you and you'll be able to start thinking that way yourself. Bach's Brandenburg Concertos and his Two Part Inventions are good starter collections.

I think all you may need is to get some additional exposure to polyphony and then start doing it.

If you can find a copy of Switched on Bach or The Well Tempered Synthesizer by Wendy Carlos that would be ideal. Hearing baroque music played on classic Moog synthesizer makes it considerably easier to hear and pick out all the parts. The notes are very pure so they don't mush together like traditional instruments do when played in ensemble. Perfect for when you want to study how Bach gets his thing to work.

Either way, let us know how you make out.

Luck! :-)

[carlthegroover]

I think similarly... unless I'm misunderstanding the OP. Anyways, my future approach is to take some lessons for guitar soloing, since I love it too, and somehow translate that to bass solos without them feeling too much like guitar solos. Maybe it is not that bad to sound guitar-ish when soloing, I don't know. That's what experimentation is good for.

I'm also taking this approach because I'm not only a wannabe bassist, but also a wannabe lead guitarist... I like rhythm guitar, and I know my basic chords, but I just can't play them with rhythm. Well, I can't play with any decent level eventhough I practice them often. Note for note melodic playing is more like my thing.

[40Hz]

(forgot to include this in my earlier post)

FWIW Victor Wooten said something interesting during an interview. When asked how he developed his unique style and ability. He said all he ever really wanted to play was bass. So when he heard something he liked being played on another instrument, rather than get distracted and pick up that instrument, he instead tried to figure out how to play it on his bass and make it sound good.

Food for thought even though my personal experience has taught me the more familiar I am with other instruments, the better a bass player I've become.

Interestingly, the instruments that made the biggest difference in my playing weren't string instruments at all. I think I learned huge amounts about bass by learning "just enough" sax, flute, and drums to be able to fake it if I had to.

Sometimes separating the notes from the time keeping function opens up your mind to thinking beyond our primary function as bassists - which IMO is to provide the pulse and the framework for the rest of the band to work in. But I'm a little old fashioned about bass, so please feel free to disagree with me on that.

So here's two approaches to learning bass you can experiment with:

1. Don't ever touch another instrument

2. Try as many different instruments as you can.

Try both and stick with whichever gets you the most benefit!

[Dusty89]

Originally Posted by 40Hz

Melodic invention always came easy to me so I tend to think in countermelodies when assembling a bassline.

Best approach might be to play musical games with each other when you practice or jam.

Toss melody lines back and forth, play follow the leader, do "call & response" or hocketing exercises - and maybe really start listening to Bach and other Baroque composers.

Modern music is chordal and 'vertical.' Baroque was primarily 'linear' and polyphonic - so these composers got good at having four or five melody lines going at the same time. Once you start hearing it in action it will make more sense to you and you'll be able to start thinking that way yourself. Bach's Brandenburg Concertos and his Two Part Inventions are good starter collections.

I think all you may need is get some additional exposure polyphony and then start doing it.

If you can find a copy of Switched on Bach or The Well Tempered Synthesizer by Wendy Carlos that would be ideal. Hearing baroque music played on classic Moog synthesizer makes it considerably easier to hear and pick out all the parts. The notes are very pure so they don't mush together like traditional instruments do when played in ensemble. Perfect for when you want to study how Bach gets his thing to work.

Either way, let us know how you make out.

Luck! :-)

I know all to well about Bach's brandenburg concerto's . I listen to Bach often for the ways his counter melodies interact. You're right, it's a great way learn complex interactions.

Also, I love Jazzist's like Charlie Parker, Coleman Hawkins, Art Tatum, and others. Definitely some solo knowledge there.

[Chrisk-K]

To me Geddy always solos underneath Alex's solo.

[nysbob]

40HZ totally nailed it with "think linnear". I tend to play a few more notes than is absolutely necessary under a guitar solo at times... at long as you're doing something musical that grooves, it can be very melodic and supportive at the same time.

You're on the right track listening to Jack Bruce. Entwistle did much the same thing (although Pete's guitar was frequently more static that allowed sonic room for that). In a perfect world, the bass should interesting enough to stand on its own as if that's all the listener could hear...but the most important thing is to really listen to what the other cats are doing and make it all work.

[Dusty89]

I've been taking your advice, my guitarist and I made some progress. I notice that I need to shift the rythmic context of my bass line to wherever he decides to go. When he decides to move to something else I need to be ready to catch him, more rythmically speaking than the notes themselves. Sometimes times this means adapting his groove or laying down a counter rythm that complements what he's doing.I feel that chemistry has a lot to do with it, but thankfully we've been playing together for years. Don't get me wrong, I'm still far from where I'd like to be, but I'm making headway.

[HolmeBass]

The other kind of music that I've always enjoyed hearing ensemble soloing in is dixie land jazz. Like the great horn breakdown in "Dixie Chicken" off of Little Feat's "Waiting For Columbus". I've always wanted to figure out how to do that in a rock and roll band context.

[PhiDeck]

Since the range of bass and guitar overlap, try some counterpoint with short sections where you go high while the guitar player drops below you.

[40Hz]

Glad to see it's starting to work for the two of you.

A couple of other things to try:

1. Have one of you play on the beat while the other works off the backbeat. Then switch back and forth. Also try alternate downbeats. ( I'm a big fan of having the drums and rhythm guitar play primarily on 1 and 3 while I play the bassline off the 2 and 4.)

2. Move the lines in alternate directions. Melody moves up, bass goes down - and vice-versa. Listen to the Beatles 'Hello Good-bye' (or whatever it's called) for a great example.

3. Listen to early 70s progressive rock. Even the most drop-tuned metalhead shredmeister can learn something about melodic bass by listening to Camel, ELP, Renaissance, and pre-Phil Collins Genesis. (Besides, metal is often highly melodic and operatic so it's not that far removed from 70s 'prog'.) Just ignore the "cosmic" lyrics if they bug you and imagine some power chords and shred notes to replace the 12-strings and synth runs if you need to. But listen to those bassists!

Pay attention to how the melodies and bass runs dovetail and weave in and out of each other, then branch apart, and later merge back to unison. Tricky, gorgeous stuff some of it...

Who knows? You might even end up liking some of that 'hippie' music. (Besides, I always thought Annie Haslam was a hot little number back in her 'salad days' no matter what anybody else thought. ) ;-)

[JTE]

The absolute critical factor is that BOTH players are carefully listening to each other (well, actually, to EVERYONE else on stage). Otherwise it's just a jumble of notes. It's very much a jazz context. The example of Cream is excellent, and one that too many people have failed to grasp over the decades. It wasn't simply three people mindlessly committing diarrhea at the same time. It's how a phrase that Clapton played made Jack play a different line, which made Ginger throw out a different lick to which Clapton responded, etc.

It's about having a conversation with each other. Further references can be found in the Allman Bros. Band's live recordings, some Grateful Dead stuff ('though I've never personally been a fan of the GD's jam stuff, instead preferring their "song" albums "Working Man's Dead" and "American Beauty"). Also listen to what's going on with Coltrane, Adderley, and Miles Davis on "Kind of Blue" or Scotty LaFaro and Bill Evans on the Village Vanguard recordings.

John

[Floridabwoy]

Originally Posted by JTE

The absolute critical factor is that BOTH players are carefully listening to each other (well, actually, to EVERYONE else on stage). Otherwise it's just a jumble of notes. It's very much a jazz context. The example of Cream is excellent, and one that too many people have failed to grasp over the decades. It wasn't simply three people mindlessly committing diarrhea at the same time. It's how a phrase that Clapton played made Jack play a different line, which made Ginger throw out a different lick to which Clapton responded, etc.

It's about having a conversation with each other. Further references can be found in the Allman Bros. Band's live recordings, some Grateful Dead stuff ('though I've never personally been a fan of the GD's jam stuff, instead preferring their "song" albums "Working Man's Dead" and "American Beauty"). Also listen to what's going on with Coltrane, Adderley, and Miles Davis on "Kind of Blue" or Scotty LaFaro and Bill Evans on the Village Vanguard recordings.

John

tGD are a perfect example of this. Listen to some of the old stuff when Jerry went up the scale to solo, Phil would go down an octave. Really killer stuff.

[40Hz]

+1with JTE's comments on listening to each other. I don't usually think to mention things like that because (to me) it's so obvious you absolutely must.

But as JTE quite correctly points out, there seems to be a huge number of musicians that never grasped the notion of LISTENING to each other and playing TOGETHER as an ensemble.

So props to John for pointing it out.

It's something every musician needs to learn. And occasionally be reminded of!

[ThudThudThud]

Pick up some old Black Sabbath and listen to what Geezer was doing while Iommi was soloing. Amazing.

[N.F.A.]

The interaction between Phil Lesh on bass and Garcia/Weir on guitar and whatever keyboardist they had would probably be useful for you to check out too. The Grateful Dead jammed around each other all the time.

[Kermin VH]

Originally Posted by ThudThudThud

Pick up some old Black Sabbath and listen to what Geezer was doing while Iommi was soloing. Amazing.

+1! This is exactly what I was gonna say, but you beat me to it, Thud! Geezer's lines under Iommi's solos are like solos in and of themselves, but they still groove and carry the song. Definitely a good starting point for any bassist interested in soloing within a hard rock/metal context.

[fmoore200]

Did anybody mention EARLY cream live albums? Not too early though. Too early and jack was supportive and too late jack was playing lead.

Spoonful off of wheels of fire is an example of the bass leading a jam session. My favorite example of perfect interplay between bass and guitar is off if live cream vol. 1 listen to N.S.U. and Sweet Wine. Absolutely great stuff.

[40Hz]

Originally Posted by fmoore200

Did anybody mention EARLY cream live albums? Not too early though. Too early and jack was supportive and too late jack was playing lead.

Spoonful off of wheels of fire is an example of the bass leading a jam session. My favorite example of perfect interplay between bass and guitar is off if live cream vol. 1 listen to N.S.U. and Sweet Wine. Absolutely great stuff.

+1!!!

Also their last reunion performance at Royal Albert Hall. Watch the DVD if you can. You can really see Jack watching, listening, and playing off Ginger and Eric. And vice versa. That's what being in a band is supposed to be all about.

Also nice to see some of the "Old Rockers" still have it where it matters.

[fmoore200]

Originally Posted by 40Hz

+1!!!

Also their last reunion performance at Royal Albert Hall. Watch the DVD if you can. You can really see Jack watching, listening, and playing off Ginger and Eric. And vice versa. That's what being in a band is supposed to be all about.

Also nice to see some of the "Old Rockers" still have it where it matters.

Eh... I didn't really love their performance at the reunion. I felt like they lost the fire-y way they used to play. I guess the best way to say it, I felt they played like old men. Not to say I wouldn't give my left leg to play like those old men!

I just felt like jack and ginger had to agree to play a backing band for Eric's version of cream. The bass was low in the mix, etc..

After listening a couple more times I have gained an appreciation for the "mature" way they played - more nuance, grace, and finesse. But when I think of cream, live more than studio, I think of a musical punch in the face...

Listen to "Deserted Cities of the Heart" off of vol. 2; the intensity they improvised with can't be matched...