Being better at Improv

[Dark&Dusty]

Hi guys,

I've recently being watching Off the Map by RHCP (yes, another Flea fan, cue yawns from around the world).

I was amazed at the amoutn of notes Flea used in jams and he never hit a bum (out of tune) note.

How does he know what to play? i've never learnt theory, I know shapes, such as if I play 3rd fret on A I could play the 3rd and 5th frets on any of the other strings in standard tuning.

Is there any way that I can learn to "feel" the bass and just know what's where? i'd love to be able to do fast little fills and not hit a bum note.


Any help is appreciated.

[Jonyak]

hit lots of bum notes until you figure out which ones will sound right in what situation.

but really I found just getting out with people and playing in a freeform jam kinda way REALLY helps. you make a ton of mistakes, but the longer you do it the less you make, and the more you begin to know where all the notes fit.

[GazzBass]

I play a lot of improv type stuff. There are no mistakes. You've just got to make the bum notes sound like you mean it.

[Jimmyplaysabass]

quit half assing your music and learn some theory

[ras1983]

Flea plays bum notes just like everyone else. I'm sure even the top flight bass players like Jimmy Johnson, Marcus, Victor etc etc play bum notes every now and then - except they just keep going and it sounds like a passing note

To be honest you have to equip yourself with the tools that will allow you to improvise like these guys. By that I mean you should learn your scales (the modes and then the other scales like the diminished, half diminished, etc) , chord tones & notes and pentatonics.

BUT you can't stop there. At this stage you will know your theory but you won't necessarily know how to make it sound musical.

So basically you'll have to learn your theory to a point where it becomes second nature and you won't have to think about it anymore, and at the same time learn how to make the theory musical so that it is pleasing to listen to.

Its very easy to stop after you learn your theory and assume you can improvise. I can't stress enough how important it is to learn how to make the theory sound musical!

[Jimmyplaysabass]

www.musictheory.net

[ko stradivarius]

If you hit the wrong note the right one is only a half step away.
Now,send me a check for $45,000.00 for youer college music education. 8)

[MarkTAW]

FWIW I've read interviews with Flea in Bass Player Magazines - back when he was winning bass player of the year awards left right and center - and almost always said stuff like:

"Why would the guys that know music theory want to learn anything from me? I only know enough to say 'Is that a G chord?' " and would always be surprised when the "egg heads" that read music magazines gave him recognition by giving him awards.

What Flea has that you probably don't, however, is a musical family - his father was a jazz musician & they had regular jam sessions at his house when he was growing up, and Flea learned trumpet before bass.

That said, learn theory. Theory is the language of music. It's like learning how to read & write and learning the differences between nouns and verbs. Sure you can talk without knowing any of it, but if you're approaching a language for the first time, it makes talking about it & learning about it that much easier.

[Dark&Dusty]

Originally Posted by Jimmyplaysabass

quit half assing your music and learn some theory

thank you for that constructive reply.

to everyone else thank you

I wasn't trying to be "cool" like Flea and not learn theory I just can't get my head around how it relates to the music I listen to.

I can learn scales and probably remember them, but what would this allow me to do?

Thanks again chaps.

[WhiteKnuckles]

Originally Posted by Dark&Dusty

thank you for that constructive reply.

to everyone else thank you

I wasn't trying to be "cool" like Flea and not learn theory I just can't get my head around how it relates to the music I listen to.

I can learn scales and probably remember them, but what would this allow me to do?

Thanks again chaps.

It's a little more than just learning scales.

It would allow you to know what note would sound good with another, why it sounds that way, what other notes would sound nice with it. No more hunting for it...i did for years and years, now I'm so much closer to just making it happen without spending a hour plunking note by note to make what I heard in my head, heard out of my bass.

It'll allow you to convey a mood...sad line, angry, <bob ross> happy runs</bob ross>.

Scales are just the surface.

[wazzel]

First learn scales, then modes. After that work on understanding how chords are put together (what notes).

Once you know that you will be able to know what notes to use over what chord and how to transition from one chord to another. Then practice. You will get to the point that when you see the chords you will automaticall know the pattern you need as the base to cover what you need.

Learn basic pattersn for major, minor and 7th chords. Also get real familure with the position of the notes on the neck. You can move the patterns around as needed.

Then learn some inverted patterns. Hit the root then go down to catch the rest of the run insted of up. Then practice some more.

[Jimmyplaysabass]

heres constructive criticism.

flea and most funk and blues use the mixolydian or dorian scales.

That being said its a minor with a flat 7th or a major with a flat 7th

now if you knew theory you would have a clue as to what that meant and how to incorporate that into your music

once again www.musictheory.net and go learn your theory

[Jimmyplaysabass]

Originally Posted by wazzel

First learn scales, then modes. After that work on understanding how chords are put together (what notes).

Once you know that you will be able to know what notes to use over what chord and how to transition from one chord to another. Then practice. You will get to the point that when you see the chords you will automaticall know the pattern you need as the base to cover what you need.

Learn basic pattersn for major, minor and 7th chords. Also get real familure with the position of the notes on the neck. You can move the patterns around as needed.

Then learn some inverted patterns. Hit the root then go down to catch the rest of the run insted of up. Then practice some more.

modes and scales are interchangeable

[jtallent]

Originally Posted by GazzBass

I play a lot of improv type stuff. There are no mistakes. You've just got to make the bum notes sound like you mean it.

+1 This is the key to improv IMO. Just as long as you make the mistakes groove. Eventually you'll learn to make less mistakes. To give some hints and advice beyond that ... learning some scales helps a bit as well but don't feel you need to know all your scales to start improvising. Just start trying it, eventually you'll put all the pieces together.

[Captain_Arrrg]

Originally Posted by GazzBass

I play a lot of improv type stuff. There are no mistakes. You've just got to make the bum notes sound like you mean it.

And

Originally Posted by ko stradivarius

If you hit the wrong note the right one is only a half step away.
Now,send me a check for $45,000.00 for youer college music education. 8)

+1
______

Originally Posted by WhiteKnuckles

It would allow you to know what note would sound good with another, why it sounds that way, what other notes would sound nice with it. No more hunting for it...i did for years and years, now I'm so much closer to just making it happen without spending a hour plunking note by note to make what I heard in my head, heard out of my bass.

All it really learns ya is the why, the others can be learned just by playing your instrument. Once you learn where the sounds on your bass are, you can construct them as you go.

Of course learnings scales can help you play with people who have spent the time to learn them.

[Doughd54]

Music is a lot like baseball and Theory is a lot like steroids. Except Theory isn't illegal and can't hurt you. Theory is much more than scales, Theory is time signatures, Dynamics, Chord Construction, how to use different modes to bring about different sounds. You acted hostile towards Jimmy, he wasn't trying to hurt your feelings or be a music snob, He was being HONEST. People say flea doesn't know music theory all the time, but few of those people are aware that flea is a classically trained trumpet player, He just didn't understand chord construction and how to create walking basslines, as i believe he pointed out in an interview with him and Charlie Haden. Also, him and john frusciante have a chemistry that i believe will be unmatched in rock music for at least another decade, which is integral to the sound of their jams. This brings me to my second point, CHEMISTRY IS VITAL TO IMPROV. My theory book says good improv is 99% theory and 1% magic. That magic is chemistry. Also my theory book is biased. IMHO you can learn all the theory you want and you'll still only be half good at improving with other musicians. By no means am I knocking theory. Don't sell yourself short, LEARN IT. But if you want to be as good an improver as Flea is, you're going to have to practice improving all the time, with a musician that you want to build chemistry with. My best friend is a guitar player, when me and him jam, I'm always amazed as to the sounds that we can produce, simply by being used to playing with the other. I've jammed with guitarists 10 times as good as him, and It has never, and will never sound as good without the chemistry being there.

[Dark&Dusty]

I didn't act hostile towards Jimmy at all, sorry if it came across that way, I just thought his answer was a bit 'snappy'.

I have bookmarked all the links given in this thread, slowly checking them out. I think the best way is to just learn what I need and splice it with stuff I know and listen to the end result, it can't hurt.

Thanks again fellas.

[Doughd54]

After you learn some basic theory, like Chord/Scale relationships, I HIGHLY suggest you pickup The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine, you can even dive into it without knowing any theory if you're willing to take your time to figure things out, it might be a little overwhelming at first though. Even if it's not jazz you're after, this book will explain everything in music that can be taught. (even though you can't teach anyone anything, you can only show them things according to Vic Wooten)

[MarkTAW]

Originally Posted by Doughd54

Music is a lot like baseball and Theory is a lot like steroids. Except Theory isn't illegal and can't hurt you. Theory is much more than scales, Theory is time signatures, Dynamics, Chord Construction, how to use different modes to bring about different sounds. You acted hostile towards Jimmy, he wasn't trying to hurt your feelings or be a music snob, He was being HONEST. People say flea doesn't know music theory all the time, but few of those people are aware that flea is a classically trained trumpet player, He just didn't understand chord construction and how to create walking basslines, as i believe he pointed out in an interview with him and Charlie Haden. Also, him and john frusciante have a chemistry that i believe will be unmatched in rock music for at least another decade, which is integral to the sound of their jams. This brings me to my second point, CHEMISTRY IS VITAL TO IMPROV. My theory book says good improv is 99% theory and 1% magic. That magic is chemistry. Also my theory book is biased. IMHO you can learn all the theory you want and you'll still only be half good at improving with other musicians. By no means am I knocking theory. Don't sell yourself short, LEARN IT. But if you want to be as good an improver as Flea is, you're going to have to practice improving all the time, with a musician that you want to build chemistry with. My best friend is a guitar player, when me and him jam, I'm always amazed as to the sounds that we can produce, simply by being used to playing with the other. I've jammed with guitarists 10 times as good as him, and It has never, and will never sound as good without the chemistry being there.

+1

I'd just like to add that Theory is not "much more than scales, Theory is time signatures, Dynamics, Chord Construction, how to use different modes to bring about different sounds" - Theory is simply a description of what works & opinions on why, and it's also lumped in with the written language of music.

Theory is Newton's Law of Gravity - Gravity existed before Newton, but being able to harness it was just a bit more difficult before Newton, and now we're able to sling-shot probes through the multitude of gravitational systems that is our solar system and send stuff to Mars and Pluto.

The same way farmers can either use science to learn about harvesting their fields, or they can come from a long line of farmers and have a "feel" for the land, you can either be born into a family of farmers (again, as Flea was), or you can read up on farming & learn what to do to keep aphids off of your broccoli and get a healthy harvest that way.

[dvh]

Originally Posted by Dark&Dusty

thank you for that constructive reply.

to everyone else thank you

I wasn't trying to be "cool" like Flea and not learn theory I just can't get my head around how it relates to the music I listen to.

I can learn scales and probably remember them, but what would this allow me to do?

Thanks again chaps.

Once you get into learning the theory and playing with other cats the info will start to make sense and you will understand how to blend it into your playing. It makes sense as you explore it and use it.