Can "Groove" be taught?

[Tupac]

I've also found that playing along to tracks does nothing for your timing. You have to play with people or a metronome.

[capnsandwich]

I believe that some people have a natural tendency towards being more musical than others, much like some people are just better athletes or better at math and science or writing. Those people can develop much faster and probably go further than those who aren't born with the same tendencies.

Also, there is a lot of ear training that goes along with learning how to groove. If you start a child early in listening to music, especially one that's gifted, then his/her ear will begin to develop much faster and be able to distinguish what he/she is hearing and break it down to individual instruments and parts. They'll be able to hear patterns that certain styles and genres of music tend to have and be able to recognize things that make the song what it is. As the person begins to understand what's happening and then learns music theory and how to apply it to what he/she is hearing, they'll be able to learn even faster and groove will not just be felt but understood as well. IME, IMO, YMMV, etc...

[tradernick]

Originally Posted by hsech

I've always thought jazz was a good way to learn to groove.

I'd say listening to The Meters/Maceo would be just as good, and maybe better.

Sorry to say it, but I think groove is mostly innate. I don't know that a person who can't make the rhythm section sound locked in the first few years is going to be able to learn how to do it by 'shedding.

Does it help to practice with a metronome if you can't hear where you're off it? Maybe playing with a 'nome/drum track and then recording and listening back?

[edfriedland]

The principles can be discussed, exercises to guide you toward rhythmic awareness can be practiced, but ultimately it will have to come from inside you. It can be nurtured through listening, environment, emulation... but no one is going to do it for you.

And interesting how when the term groove is brought up... everyone defaults to funk. Groove is not style specific. ACDC grooves. James Brown grooves. Elvin Jones grooves. Ray Price grooves. Tower of Power grooves. Los Tigres Del Norte groove. Aerosmith grooves. John Scofield grooves. As a bass player, I want to be able to groove in ALL those situations. I do it by first trusting my own innate clock, and knowing how different subdivisions of the beat feel. Then I absorb the style of music so I can play with a knowledge of the whole, not just the bass part. Then I do my best to stay out of the way and let it happen.

My written output on this topic has evolved over the years. At first it was all about the metronome (still an important part of the process IMO), but later became more focused on understanding subdivisions and the rhythmic hierarchy. Then I started looking at ways to internalize this stuff (singing rhythm) and for myself... ways to make it physical (drumming, exercise, dancing...). It's not just about playing with the click, but - you should be able to. If you can't... don't kid yourself, get it together!

[thatbassist863]

Groove is a feeling. Like Ed Friedland said the mechanics can be taught but groove comes from inside you. I may feel groove one way but someone else may feel it a totally different way. The best thing I can say about groove is to feel the music in your way and play what you feel. If the groove that your playing is felt in your body, soul, and heart, then the audience will feel it to.

[Killens84]

I'm a high school band director, and can relate this to what I've seen/experienced. Some people just have a better natural sense of musicality than others. Some kids begin learning an instrument and just take off, while others seem to be hopeless.

There are times when I scratch my head, not understanding how someone can't feel a tempo and play four quarter notes with that pulse. But it's amazing how there will be some cases where a kid will go a few years of really struggling, and then something just clicks and a lightbulb comes on.

So I will say that some people just have a better natural sense of musicality, or "groove," and can do it with ease. But it's still possible for someone lacking that ability to cultivate and develop it over time.

[devilman666]

Groove is about the notes you don't play and silence.

[Tupac]

Originally Posted by capnsandwich

I believe that some people have a natural tendency towards being more musical than others, much like some people are just better athletes or better at math and science or writing. Those people can develop much faster and probably go further than those who aren't born with the same tendencies.

Also, there is a lot of ear training that goes along with learning how to groove. If you start a child early in listening to music, especially one that's gifted, then his/her ear will begin to develop much faster and be able to distinguish what he/she is hearing and break it down to individual instruments and parts. They'll be able to hear patterns that certain styles and genres of music tend to have and be able to recognize things that make the song what it is. As the person begins to understand what's happening and then learns music theory and how to apply it to what he/she is hearing, they'll be able to learn even faster and groove will not just be felt but understood as well. IME, IMO, YMMV, etc...

That was probably my issue. I never started building a library until 8th grade and ignored music up until then. I almost disliked it too because I was never introduced to music I liked until I finally stumbled upon it (funk and its branch offs). Amazing how things changed, probably why I can't groove for jack now. Perhaps it has something to do with how the nervous system develops?

[capnsandwich]

Originally Posted by Tupac

That was probably my issue. I never started building a library until 8th grade and ignored music up until then. I almost disliked it too because I was never introduced to music I liked until I finally stumbled upon it (funk and its branch offs). Amazing how things changed, probably why I can't groove for jack now. Perhaps it has something to do with how the nervous system develops?

It may have something to do with it. You build a lot of foundational knowledge in the first 7 years or so. It's not that you can't learn it but it may take longer. Also, as you grow older you're also running out of time to learn it. Starting younger = more time to learn and develop it. Then, again, some people simply have it and others don't so that comes into play as well.

[conqr]

Originally Posted by edfriedland

And interesting how when the term groove is brought up... everyone defaults to funk. Groove is not style specific. ACDC grooves. James Brown grooves. Elvin Jones grooves. Ray Price grooves. Tower of Power grooves. Los Tigres Del Norte groove. Aerosmith grooves. John Scofield grooves. As a bass player, I want to be able to groove in ALL those situations. I do it by first trusting my own innate clock, and knowing how different subdivisions of the beat feel. Then I absorb the style of music so I can play with a knowledge of the whole, not just the bass part. Then I do my best to stay out of the way and let it happen.

Exactly - 'groove' is not genre-specific, it's solid timing mixed with an innate understanding of the music being played, you 'feel' it. The result is a rich, infectious and authentic. This is why my favorite bassists/musicians tend to span multiple genres very well.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by Killens84

I'm a high school band director, and can relate this to what I've seen/experienced. Some people just have a better natural sense of musicality than others. Some kids begin learning an instrument and just take off, while others seem to be hopeless.

There are times when I scratch my head, not understanding how someone can't feel a tempo and play four quarter notes with that pulse. But it's amazing how there will be some cases where a kid will go a few years of really struggling, and then something just clicks and a lightbulb comes on.

So I will say that some people just have a better natural sense of musicality, or "groove," and can do it with ease. But it's still possible for someone lacking that ability to cultivate and develop it over time.

Same problems with many aspects of life. Change this whole subject to learning English. Even though we can all learn all the words and punctuation, and all leave school with the same qualafications, some can write great stories, poetry, novels etc can come up with great ideas, plot lines, locations, characterization etc..while some cannot have an original thought or idea in their heads from having the same education.

Move on to Sport, the same will apply, same training same, program, different results across the board.

The fact is personal experience, some genetics, physical co-ordination, mixed with the correct mental attitude, can be seen as "natural talent".
Someone who cannot play a guitar, will not find playing a bass any more creative, if you cannot organise the 12 notes we use in Western Music on a guitar, then you will have the same disapointment trying it on a bass.....its not the number of strings that matter......its the number of notes and both have the same amount.
So that means if you have to change something, change your thinking...not your instrument and learn to organise those 12 notes into music.

[Clef_de_fa]

Originally Posted by Tupac

I've also found that playing along to tracks does nothing for your timing. You have to play with people or a metronome.

I think it is a great way to learn various technic, timing etc in a context that you know what it should be. Recreating cover with a band is kind of the same thing.

Creating original music is different because you can come up with your own bass line and keep it in the limit of what you can do. So you always stay in your confort zone instead of trying.

A metronome can help with your timing but I think a metronome is beat used with some written rythm and a teacher. Sing the rythm before playing it. Again going outside of your confort zone help a lot.

[Clef_de_fa]

Originally Posted by Tupac

That was probably my issue. I never started building a library until 8th grade and ignored music up until then. I almost disliked it too because I was never introduced to music I liked until I finally stumbled upon it (funk and its branch offs). Amazing how things changed, probably why I can't groove for jack now. Perhaps it has something to do with how the nervous system develops?

I started listening to music I was 15 ... I started playing bass at 16. Prior to that my parents listened to Queen, The Doors, Pink Floyd, Superstramp etc and I played a lot of video game.

My parents doesn't play any musical instrument, I just starting playing bass because it was an interesting activity and the bass isn't hard from what I heard. I was right until I found Technical Death Metal, Classical music and a Jazz solo.

I also think that if I didn't have a teacher, I wouldn't be as good as I am. breaking rythm, music theory, solfege all helped making sense and helped me understand what was going on because I don't feel it in my body but I understand it in my mind. Maybe this is why I like complex music so much, why I like classical music etc over dance music or funk and stuff like that.

[Clef_de_fa]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

Same problems with many aspects of life. Change this whole subject to learning English. Even though we can all learn all the words and punctuation, and all leave school with the same qualafications, some can write great stories, poetry, novels etc can come up with great ideas, plot lines, locations, characterization etc..while some cannot have an original thought or idea in their heads from having the same education.

Move on to Sport, the same will apply, same training same, program, different results across the board.

The fact is personal experience, some genetics, physical co-ordination, mixed with the correct mental attitude, can be seen as "natural talent".

+1

Someone who cannot play a guitar, will not find playing a bass any more creative, if you cannot organise the 12 notes we use in Western Music on a guitar, then you will have the same disapointment trying it on a bass.....its not the number of strings that matter......its the number of notes and both have the same amount.
So that means if you have to change something, change your thinking...not your instrument and learn to organise those 12 notes into music.

Every instrument has at least one octave but still ... the rang of your instrument may be a hindrance to your creativity ...

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by Clef_de_fa

Every instrument has at least one octave but still ... the rang of your instrument may be a hindrance to your creativity ...

Of course that's a given...to a certain degree depending on the instrument of course, but notes need rhythm so that puts the creativity on being rhythmic within in the parameters of the 12 notes....I have seen some incredible tea chest players, and what they all have is imagination and creativity on many plains....as I have seen in Harmonica players...the names Mike Stevens and Jason Ricci comes to mind as far as those little diatonic instruments are concerned.

[bumperbass]

Some groove is born in you. Some people have timing, some don't. It also takes LIVE experience with a good drummer. Lastly, it's hard to groove if you overplay. It's better to develop a technique where you learn syncopation/ghost note playing without trying to be a buzzsaw. It's a feeling, not a horse race.

[thatbassist863]

Groove is more than just notes and rhythmic placement. It also invokes the dynamic of the notes played, how you articulate those notes, how you play the notes (finger style, thump, etc.), and even the rest that you put in between the notes.

Groove is also subjective, what I think is a great groove may not be to the next person.

[Russell L]

When I swing a golf club, it's not just about grabbing the club and swinging away. There are "techniques," such as warming up until I have a good feeling of rhythm, understanding the club head shape, ball density, target distance, (theory, if you will) and an inexplicable thing called "be the target." That's just for starters. But, mostly, to me, it's the thing about feeling the balance and feel of the swing. All this combines to be the groove in hitting a good shot. Don't make it happen, let it happen. Playing music is the same, only the techniques have different names and functions. Nothing to do with style of music. And, IMO, you can study the mechanics of it all day, which helps with understanding, but eventually it comes down to the feel. Many do it by ear, just feel alone. I did at first, beginning about 60 years ago on my mother's lap, banging on the piano. Once my ear trained I could play songs I heard on the radio when I was still a child. Later, I learned theory and other techniques, but the feel of the groove was already planted. Was I born with the ability? Heck if I know. Seems to me it was all learned through much time on many instruments. I can say that what theoretical thing I learned eventually became second nature so that I don't have to think about it so much, that is, it's all kinda melted into the groove to some extent. It's hard to feel something if you have to think too much (as in having too many swing thoughts when you address the ball).

And, as always, my favorite line--articulation is everything.

[Fergie Fulton]

Just a thought to everyone that believes a drummer or locking into a drummer is part of the equation, how do symphony Orchestras play in time ( 78+ musicians)?

There are many forms of music that does not have a "hit on beat', I was taught as a classical player that I and I alone are responsible for my timing.
What I and other trained players do is relate our timing with each other, we do not depend or really need each other for it. But the combined sonics of us playing "in the pocket" is a desired sound and feel, but that is a different application of timing to make a groove.
In the end once you understand and can keep your own timing, you find it easier to relate it to others, but this is a leap of faith and a catch-22 combined, because you have to take the time to do the correct things and trust it will happen, not doubt or question when it will.

[Russell L]

Many folks underestimate the importance of a conductor in an orchestra. Sure, he's there to start and stop everyone, but there is a lot of music which has no definable beat being heard, yet, it is written in time. Everyone depends on the conductor to display where that time occurs. Without him/her it would be chaos. Plus, at times when time and tempo changes the conductor is indispensable.