Can "Groove" be taught?

[Clef_de_fa]

Originally Posted by Russell L

Many folks underestimate the importance of a conductor in an orchestra. Sure, he's there to start and stop everyone, but there is a lot of music which has no definable beat being heard, yet, it is written in time. Everyone depends on the conductor to display where that time occurs. Without him/her it would be chaos. Plus, at times when time and tempo changes the conductor is indispensable.

In an orchestra ... if you happen to see a quatuor or any type of small ensemble, they doesn't have a conductor, nor a drummer nor a metronome.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by Clef_de_fa

In an orchestra ... if you happen to see a quatuor or any type of small ensemble, they doesn't have a conductor, nor a drummer nor a metronome.

+1

Now this relates to the phenomenon that creates mass panic, mass hysteria etc.. and the many other mass feelings we can get in a crowd that can be amplified and transmitted from one to another fast.

It is believed to be a hang over from past that of one got spooked, we all got spooked, so if one ran we all ran. We see it in animal behaviours, especially on mass. Large flocks of birds do it in the sky produce beautiful shapes and patterns in the air, as shoels of fish do in the water.

For us it seems we can transmit and receive the feeling of time if trained to recognise it.
Sure the conductor is the relation to time, but how do you explain how everyone comes in to gestures rather than an audible count if you have not experienced this before?

One of the things I found from playing in Orchestras, ( when I used to play in them ) is that no one taps their feet or tries to relate to the count in an audible way.
This is because the players around you maybe counting in a different way to you.
Some may relate to it in quarter notes, some may relate to in in half or whole notes, so what you do not need is someone else's influence to how they are feeling the beat to put you off.
That confidence and trust in your own abilities transfers to many other things in life and other musical genres and ideas.

[Tupac]

I can confirm how useful a conductor is... you don't appreciate it until you're out there on stage.

[Stone Soup]

IMO, groove can't be learned. People can learn to play in time, but they can't learn to "groove". Groove is inherent. It is a feeling. I don't think someone can be taught how to feel music.

It is my experience that when some people think they're "grooving", they're not; they're just playing time. A groove isn't something you THINK. A groove just is.

[Russell L]

Originally Posted by Clef_de_fa

In an orchestra ... if you happen to see a quatuor or any type of small ensemble, they doesn't have a conductor, nor a drummer nor a metronome.

You're right there. I have also played in small ensembles with no conductor. Of course, someone is usually designated to start things, and perhaps lead in some way when needed. But, the beat itself could easily be hidden within the music, depending on the passage. That could get tricky. And yes, if you want to know fear there is nothing quite like losing your count, and not knowing where the "1" is. Classical music doesn't always express the beat like other music does.

Oh boy, I hate it when the bass lays out for, like, 29 measures, or something like that. You always see folks looking up and down the line holding out fingers and mouthing the numbers to see if they concurred with anyone else. It could be easy to drift off daydreaming when counting so long.

[oniman7]

Yes. Through active listening, practice, dissection, and feedback, it can be taught. I had none of it when I started. Now I have a little more :P

[Tupac]

Originally Posted by Russell L

You're right there. I have also played in small ensembles with no conductor. Of course, someone is usually designated to start things, and perhaps lead in some way when needed. But, the beat itself could easily be hidden within the music, depending on the passage. That could get tricky. And yes, if you want to know fear there is nothing quite like losing your count, and not knowing where the "1" is. Classical music doesn't always express the beat like other music does.

Oh boy, I hate it when the bass lays out for, like, 29 measures, or something like that. You always see folks looking up and down the line holding out fingers and mouthing the numbers to see if they concurred with anyone else. It could be easy to drift off daydreaming when counting so long.

Hah. My highschool percussion teacher told me a story about how he had to wait over 100 measures just to play a single triangle hit at the end of a song and missed lol. The conductor chewed him out good.

[Clef_de_fa]

Originally Posted by Russell L

You're right there. I have also played in small ensembles with no conductor. Of course, someone is usually designated to start things, and perhaps lead in some way when needed. But, the beat itself could easily be hidden within the music, depending on the passage. That could get tricky. And yes, if you want to know fear there is nothing quite like losing your count, and not knowing where the "1" is. Classical music doesn't always express the beat like other music does.

This is why I like classical music so much or other still of music where you have wierd things going on.

Oh boy, I hate it when the bass lays out for, like, 29 measures, or something like that. You always see folks looking up and down the line holding out fingers and mouthing the numbers to see if they concurred with anyone else. It could be easy to drift off daydreaming when counting so long.

I never really have a problem with that. Just count, it isn't really hard to count without banging your head, tap your foot etc. I learned it at the beginning of my musical journey and I'm glad I did.

[Clef_de_fa]

Originally Posted by Tupac

Hah. My highschool percussion teacher told me a story about how he had to wait over 100 measures just to play a single triangle hit at the end of a song and missed lol. The conductor chewed him out good.

Percussion is the most sadistic thing to play in an orchestre ... you sometime have to move to a different percussion for one hit and return where you were... Waiting for so long, you must count, I think it is harder than playing drum where you are the metronome.

[Russell L]

I was just thinking about the thread title, "Can 'Groove' be taught," and thinking to myself, "I don't know if it can be taught, but it can be learned." Could that be right? I honestly don't know. You know some things are really difficult to teach, but does that mean they still can't be learned in some way or another. I mean, no one taught me how to groove, but I sure learned how to. And, somehow I just don't know if it's because I was born with it, that doesn't sound right to me. I think I learned it, although all by myself.

[dmusic148]

Originally Posted by Stone Soup

IMO, groove can't be learned. People can learn to play in time, but they can't learn to "groove". Groove is inherent. It is a feeling. I don't think someone can be taught how to feel music.
.

Mmmmm..... Gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you there, but I understand where you're coming from.
Not sure it can be taught, but I believe anyone can learn it, IF they really feel the music and really WANT it. My opinion.

[Stone Soup]

Originally Posted by dmusic148

but I believe anyone can learn it, IF they really feel the music and really WANT it. My opinion.

If they really feel the music, they don't need to be taught to groove. Groove is inherent. It's how you FEEL the music. Maybe, it can be nourished. It can't be taught.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by Stone Soup

If they really feel the music, they don't need to be taught to groove. Groove is inherent. It's how you FEEL the music. Maybe, it can be nourished. It can't be taught.

Of course it can be taught, to what degree do you have to take it to for it to be called "groove". For example if a player that can groove Latin music, you believe they cannot learn to groove reggae....or visa versa?
When you define 'groove' it cannot be limited to any one feel. Different genres, different feels = different grooves, they are not all mutual, so you can groove in one but not another.

I have some great friends that are monster jazzers, but could not pull of a Chuck Berry or Sly & Family Stone groove to save their lives unless they worked on it, so they in fact will learn to groove. The same applies to my Rock friends, some can nail a Purple or Whitesnake song, but would struggle with a simple Jazz or latin Groove......unless they worked on it.

Of they can do it, anyone can do it, but as I said, to what degree do you decide to define when it is "groove" and when it is not?

[Stone Soup]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

Of course it can be taught, to what degree do you have to take it to for it to be called "groove".

The person has to have the it in them, somewhere, in the first place. How will you teach someone with no rhythm to "groove"? People who are so inclined can be taught different styles, but people with no natural feel absolutely cannot be taught to groove.

[Mechanical]

No. I know some guys who everybody knows that are technically proficient but couldn't find the groove if their life depended on it. They're like bass playing machines.

[Tupac]

Originally Posted by Stone Soup

The person has to have the it in them, somewhere, in the first place. How will you teach someone with no rhythm to "groove"? People who are so inclined can be taught different styles, but people with no natural feel absolutely cannot be taught to groove.

Let's be scientific here. "Groove" is a term for playing in time (and cleanly, which can 100% be taught) with a human drummer and possibly adapting to his slightly changing rhythm. Timing I'd assume is the ability to tell your limbs to do what you want at the instant you want to. Take my crappy timing for example. I can easily count along with a metronome in my head in perfect time and even talk in perfect time, but my fingers just can't do it. They won't move when I tell them to! It's not a matter of rushing or being too slow, if someone gave me a count down and told me to play exactly on the 1 only of the next measure, I'd be very slightly off a few measures of doing that. So can someone develop their motor skills? Yes, at least I think so.

Originally Posted by Mechanical

No. I know some guys who everybody knows that are technically proficient but couldn't find the groove if their life depended on it. They're like bass playing machines.

What an appropriate username.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by Mechanical

No. I know some guys who everybody knows that are technically proficient but couldn't find the groove if their life depended on it. They're like bass playing machines.

Again I would say what are you judging them on, the fact they cannot groove what you can groove, or the fact they cannot groove at all, at nothing, nada, nil, nought, nowt....
When I was younger, I would listen to some forms of music and hear a noise, a racket of notes and timings that made no sense, but I now know it was me not being experienced enough to understand and recognise what the groove I should have been listening to was.

Groove can be found in many things, such as the clickity clack of a train on the tracks, a complete in-animate thing, a mechanical machine with no soul.......but that rhythm it creates is a groove.

I have never yet met anyone who cannot be taught to groove, but like I said who is deciding what is groove, at what standard of play does groove start and stop?

[Stone Soup]

Originally Posted by Tupac

Let's be scientific here. "Groove" is a term for playing in time (and cleanly, which can 100% be taught) with a human drummer and possibly adapting to his slightly changing rhythm.

Let's be scientific, here: Groove is the sense of propulsive rhythmic "feel" or sense of "swing" created by the interaction of the music played by a band's rhythm section.

FEEL cannot be learned, only nurtured.

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

Groove can be found in many things, such as the clickity clack of a train on the tracks...

No. Rhythm can be found in the "clickety clack" of a train. Rhythm is not groove. One needs rhythm TO groove. Groove is an understanding of where the FEEL of a musical piece is.

[Clef_de_fa]

Originally Posted by Stone Soup

Let's be scientific, here: Groove is the sense of propulsive rhythmic "feel" or sense of "swing" created by the interaction of the music played by a band's rhythm section.

FEEL cannot be learned, only nurtured.

No. Rhythm can be found in the "clickety clack" of a train. Rhythm is not groove. One needs rhythm TO groove. Groove is an understanding of where the FEEL of a musical piece is.

euh swing can be learned ... it can also be written on a music sheet in standart notation. By the band's rythm section ... It isn't the thing that only the f***ing drum and bass has on their shoulder ... everyone in the band is reponsible of it ... like it is the reponsability of everyone in the band to be tight, know where they are etc ...

[Luke19Boarder]

I don't see nature vs. nurture as mutually exclusive - they both have their places in the development of "groove." Some people groove the first time they pick up a bass, and some people put 10,000 hours in and still sound like a robot (or worse!!). And there are some people that have no groove when they start playing, but improve greatly ... and others that only improve a little bit.

People are different. I guess that's my point.