Can someone rightfully call themselves a musician even though they can't read music?

fourstringburn · #1 08-13-2009, 08:07 PM

This debate came up in a Gene Simmons love/hate thread and I think it deserves to discussed on it's own.

Basically, I hear too much of people calling themselves musicians, yet a lot of people calling themselves "musicians" can't read or write music's written language, and yet still believe they earned this title without merit.

So when did these people become musicians? when they first picked up a bass and figured out how to play Smoke on the Water? When someone showed them how to read tablature? Or when they learned to tune the bass properly? or after a year of playing along with records and jammin' in some bands and creating songs?

In my opinion, this makes you a "Bass player" as a Bass player, for the most part, you play songs you or someone else created, or jam and improvise to the best of your ability. This is what many of the rock bassists we admire do and what they are. It shouldn't be an insult to be labeled a "bass player" because this is what they do and what we do. You should be proud because you are in good company of a lot a great bass players in many styles. I'm sure there are rock bassists out there who are musically educated, but I only know of a few. But I don't know of any Jazz or Classical or Session bassists who aren't. I wonder why?

But to label yourselves as an "musician", I think it is a disservice to all the musicians who took the time and patience,(not to mention financed) to study music, play music, teach music, and write music to become the well rounded musicians we respect today.

Another subject is song writing. I pointed out how many non- musically educated people say they "write songs". I view this "write songs" statement as just a metaphor when in fact, they created a song. So I asked what did they write it on? because other then lyrics, most rock songs are not written on paper. If you can't read music, you can't write it out either. I'm aware of the "Nashville Numbers system and chord charts, but unless you have have some music education, these are useless to you, so that's not the same thing.

Lets hear some honest intelligent opinions from hopefully both sides of bassists who are studied in music education and ones who are not.

TSanders · #2 08-13-2009, 08:33 PM

I dont read a lick, but I play as many gigs as I wish......

done a load of professional albums, and went on the road for the first time at age 15 doing 150-180 dates per year for the following three to four years.

BUT, since I cant read, Im not what youd consider a "musician"? Fine by me, my phones still a ringin' with gig offers........

TSanders · #3 08-13-2009, 08:38 PM

and Im usually not as short or brash as my last post, but in all honesty (just my opinion) the original post reeked of eliteist attitude.......

HaVIC5 · #4 08-13-2009, 08:43 PM

Yeah, I think its incredibly snobbish to think that because a person isn't versed in reading music that their music making is entirely inferior to those who can. By your logic, cats like Dennis Chambers aren't competent musicians, but middle school band students tooting out Greensleaves are. Its a ridiculous notion that somehow the academic training one has put into their craft makes a person better than another at music, because ultimately, that's not what people care about. Who gives a sh*t that you have a PhD in Theory? You don't get gigs that way.

UncleBalsamic · #5 08-13-2009, 08:44 PM

onlyclave · #6 08-13-2009, 08:44 PM

"Musician" means you have "Ordinary Skill in the Art of Music". If you can't read music, which is the primary way of transferring musical information from one player to another and transcends distance and time, then you are missing a critical skill in the art of music.

It doesn't matter how many people are calling you for gigs. Bass players get those calls. Being a musician is instrument agnostic. I've personally put over 28 years into the practice of the art of music, am college educated in music, am fluent in 5 other instruments besides electric and double bass and I understand the language of music. Some people might call me a musician.

Being just a bass player and not a "musician" is not an insult, but there are some dues to pay before you should identify your as a musician. Music is all-inclusive, but the ones who put in the work are the musicians.

20db pad · #7 08-13-2009, 08:55 PM

I'm not comfortable with the ability to read as a required qualifier to earn someone the title of "musician". There's simply too many fine players that can't read a note. Billy Sheehan, George Benson (!), Pino Palladino, Louis Johnson, and Eddie Van Halen immediately come to mind as players with little to no reading ability. Even without this skill, these players managed to enjoy long careers, play hundreds of records, and entertain, enchant, and move people through their music, which is what a musician is truly supposed to do at the end of the day.

PBass101 · #8 08-13-2009, 08:55 PM

I can read music with piano and saxophone and have studied music theory, but have not actually sat down and learned to read sheet music with bass guitar. As I play rock, like you've mentioned, reading sheet music is not necessary. If I wanted, I could learn to read music on bass guitar in about a month's time with concentrated practice. I gig in a band on bass and consider myself an intermediate-advanced player, but do not play piano or sax out anymore. Ever.

Am I a musician?

I think that being a musician/artist has much more to do with one's ability to create new, pleasing music than with the textbook-issued ability to read or write it on paper. Though I do understand where your point is coming from.

barbarbass · #9 08-13-2009, 08:56 PM

Man, I don't need all that "reading" nonsense. I just feel the music, dude. I sit deep in the pocket, and I just let my phat groove flow.

Reading is for a bunch of tight-asses who want to play old-lady music, like Bok and Beethovin and those cats.

I don't need that theory stuff, because my ear and my feel is so good. Man, I can swing "Giant Steps" at 175 bpm.

CatfishStudios · #10 08-13-2009, 09:00 PM

Lets say I was born in France...I speak fluent French, but am illiterate, cannot read or write French...I guess I wouldn't be a Frenchman by your logic.

Ive found no definition of "musician" that contains the requirement of reading musical notation. I guess if you want to make up your own definitions, it can mean whatever you want. But we do have a set standard.

mu⋅si⋅cian
/myuˈzɪʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [myoo-zish-uhn] Show IPA
Use musician in a Sentence
–noun
1. a person who makes music a profession, esp. as a performer of music.
2. any person, whether professional or not, skilled in music.

Phil Smith · #11 08-13-2009, 09:02 PM

Music was made well before any reading or writing took place.

fourstringburn · #12 08-13-2009, 09:03 PM

I knew this would start some controversy, but it was merely started by an attack at a poster who said " Kiss fans aren't into musicianship" like he some master musician because he doesn't like Kiss, and alot of us do. I'm willing to bet he can't read a note of music!

I'm not writing off any bands, I'm just pointing out a fact. When recording artists, mostly rock bands (or most any band for that matter) say they "write songs" the word "write" is merely a metaphor.

Other than writing lyrics down on paper, is any of the music by most bands written in notation, chord charts, or even tablature? have any of the bands you played in written your songs down on paper? None of the rock bands I played in have! mainly because most of the "musicians" I played with can't read note either.

Most songs by bands start with a riff or a lyric, (that someone jammed on) then builds from there. sound like a familiar formula?

Sure there are more complex bands like Yes, Rush, King Crimson and others that orchestrate many different and interesting parts in their songs. But are there bands 'WRITING "songs like that today?

Does it mean we all suck if we can't read music? No! some of the best players can't, but the better ones can! do you wonder why?

As much as I admire Billy Sheehan, Have you ever seen his instructional videos on You-Tube? sure he can amaze you on how he plays,(he amazes the hell out of me!) but have you noticed what he lacks when he tries to explain the musical theory behind his playing? I have seen a clip where he freely admits this though.

Have you ever watched any You-Tube videos by musically accomplished bassists like John Pattatucci,Jaco,Chuck Rainey and others? can you see how they can easily explain with confidence in great detail the music theory behind what they do and why they do it?

None the less, I still stand behind what I say about be able to read music's written language. playing an instrument is only one part of music. I'm sure the great jazz bassists, studio bassists, and the other fine bass players playing on the bandstand would agree.

Sorry if many of you take offense to it, I'm telling like it is, but your negative replies are nothing more than semantics in lieu of your unwillingness to learn to read "music's written language

Captain_Arrrg · #13 08-13-2009, 09:03 PM

Looks like someone needed to massage their ego by segregating a community.

Dude, you are like, SOOO awesome! I hope someday I can give myself a meaningless label and pretend like I'm special. Wait... Hold on... I'm proud to announce that after many long seconds of training, I am now Captain Lord Master Admiral of the Low End Arrrg Esq. and you all will respect and envy me! Do it now!

PBass101 · #14 08-13-2009, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Arrrg

I'm proud to announce that after many long seconds of training, I am now Captain Lord Master Admiral of the Low End Arrrg Esq. and you all will respect and envy me! Do it now!

...If you say so.

MattAT · #15 08-13-2009, 09:08 PM

Man, horrible. Just wrong. I disagree but respect your choice.

fourstringburn · #16 08-13-2009, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Arrrg

Looks like someone needed to massage their ego by segregating a community.

Dude, you are like, SOOO awesome! I hope someday I can give myself a meaningless label and pretend like I'm special. Wait... Hold on... I'm proud to announce that after many long seconds of training, I am now Captain Lord Master Admiral of the Low End Arrrg Esq. and you all will respect and envy me! Do it now!

Now that's exactly the intelligent response I was hoping for!

MonkeyBass · #17 08-13-2009, 09:09 PM

Playing devil's advocate here... not taking a side...

If you can't read or write words are you an "Author" because you can talk or make up a story?

Food for thought.

Burlington · #18 08-13-2009, 09:09 PM

What a stupid argument. To be a musician you do not have to know how to read music, furthermore knowing how to read music does not make you a musician.
Makes me sad seeing these guys who are professionally educated trying to tell others they are not musicians because they cannot read. Get over yourselves.

CatfishStudios · #19 08-13-2009, 09:12 PM

By the way, I have studied Theory and Jazz improvisation in College, I can read notation, still reading music is not now nor ever has been a requirement within the definition of musician. No matter how much you want it to be.
Your opinion does not change the fact.Grab a dictionary. It really sounds to me like some people are trying to create some elite club which of course they belong in, and non reading instrument-hacks do not.

KaizerWilhelm · #20 08-13-2009, 09:12 PM

I am a musician because I play bass, guitar and drums. I am also going to Uni for music. I cannot read music very well, hell, I can almost not read music period. My bass teacher calls me a musician because I play instruments. He say that yes, I could be a BETTER musician if I read, and I am learning to but he and all of my other music professors call me a musician. Could all of these Uni professors be wrong? I think not.