Carol Kaye - Lessons?

ErikP.Bass · #1 01-14-2008, 07:48 PM

I am just wondering how many people on talkbass.com use Carol Kaye's books, methods/techniques or if anyone has actually taken a lesson from her. I'd love to read your stories and discuss points of interest.

Please discuss educational materials and techniques, not so much the typical "who played on what" or personality issues that usually come up.

62bass · #2 01-14-2008, 07:54 PM

I use her books, DVDs etc. They're great. Start with the Bass DVD course. 2 hours of knowledge it'll take years to find from other methods. She knows her stuff.

bassandbeyond · #3 01-14-2008, 07:56 PM

Be warned: any mention of Carol's name on here inevitably provokes a major flame war. However, I have studied with Carol sporadically over a period of years, and I can tell you that you need to be thick-skinned, but she has a LOT to offer as a teacher, especially in the realm of jazz improvisation. I get along fine with Carol, but if you don't want to deal with the personality issues, I would recommend getting her books and try to work out as much as you can from the books.

slugworth · #4 01-14-2008, 07:57 PM

I took lessons from her, but that was about 30 years ago. I wouldn't really recommend anything of hers today except maybe for some of her beginner type materials. As far as trying to take lessons from her these days??? Fahgettaboutit..

98dvl · #5 01-14-2008, 08:04 PM

I bought her DVD, and a few of her books. It's good material, however it's not really organized very well. The DVD was all over the place, and it was like she couldn't finish one thing before jumping on to another topic.

I've never met the lady, but she seems to have a lot of energy, and maybe she's got a bit of ADD... I don't write that to be mean, just so you know what to expect if you're going to buy her DVD or her books.

Like I said though, there's some good info in the books, if you can follow along (and weed out the extra "stuff" that she sends along).

ErikP.Bass · #6 01-14-2008, 09:36 PM

Thanks for the input fellas. I do have her Bass DVD and a couple of her books. I feel like there is a wealth of information in them.

I agree, things did seem a bit scattered at times in the video to me. I wasn't sure if the pace was just too fast for me or if things weren't explained as well as they could be.

Without question she has some amazing chops with a pick.

I personally identify with the 1-2-4 LH technique and am intrigued with her chordal approach to soloing. I was taught using OFPF and scale improvisation so I am enjoying exploring these other
concepts/approaches.

CamMcIntyre · #7 01-14-2008, 10:06 PM

I've got her 6 electric bass books. Great stuff I want to pickup her DVDs. I agree that the information feels like it's not organized to well.

Marcury · #8 01-14-2008, 10:14 PM

I've used a number of her materials. the thing that move4d me further forward than anything else I've studied is her insistence on chord scales (harmonizing scale degrees) as opposed to scales and modes. After a few weeks of working that way my ears opened much wider.

62bass · #9 01-15-2008, 03:57 AM

[quote=ErikP.Bass;5162275] I wasn't sure if the pace was just too fast for me or if things weren't explained as well as they could be.

Things do go by very quickly in that DVD, so you have to go through each section a number of times to make sure you don't miss anything. And of course, you must practice the exercises she gives until they're part of you. That's true of any teacher's exercises. She just doesn't spend the whole 2 hours explaining one topic. If you do go through it a number of times and practice it enough it all does make sense as I'm sure you've been discovering.

The chordal practice really does open up your ears as marcury mentioned. Another side benefit, if you have to sing harmony parts, is you can quickly hear your part "in your head" and just sing it without torturous trial and error as I've seen many even experienced musicians have to do. Also, hearing chord changes becomes very easy too which is a big help if you have to sit in to play without any rehearsal.

mambo4 · #10 01-15-2008, 02:39 PM

I've seen some of Carol's material and thought it was valuable info especially for people just learning, or players looking to expand.

I'm curious about "chord scales" mentioned above...I recall her mentioning these at some point, the idea being a more practical approach to playing changes than detail modal exercises. but could anyone elaborate?

how do "chord scales" fit in the scheme of
root
arpeggios/chord tones
pentatonic
complete scales/modes
?

what are the "chord scale" exercises like?

Marcury · #11 01-15-2008, 02:51 PM

Chord scales are harmonizing a scale and playing the triad, seventh etc. arpeggios in order. So for example in the key of C maj, playing Cmaj, Dmin, Emin, Fmaj, Gmaj, Amin, Bdim triads. This is as opposed to playing scales/modes and or arpeggios diatonically etc. After learning/playing Triads up and down expand to Seventh chords etc.

Any scale can be harmonized and practiced this way and it really helps hearing changes much more than running scales (even in harmonic sequence) IME.

HaVIC5 · #12 01-15-2008, 03:38 PM

The theory behind chord scales is that for every chord in every given functional harmonic progression has a specific CHORD SCALE (occassionaly more than one) that goes with it. What I mean by this, is that the I chord in a progression typically takes an ionian chord scale, the V chord typically takes a mixolydian chord scale, a substitute dominant will take a lydian b7 chord scale, etc. The way these are different from modes or regular scales is that each pitch is classified in relationship to the chord itself, and each pitch has a special function to the chord. When you describe a C ionian mode, you describe it as C D E F G A B, but that doesn't tell you what each pitch does in relationship to a C maj chord.

For example, considering a Cmaj7 chord, which in the key of C would typically take an ionian chord scale, you would classify the pitches C E G and B as chord tones in the chord scale, or 1 3 5 7. Chord tones are the most stable pitches in relationship to the basic chord. What you have left with are the pitches D F and A. The pitches D and A are classified as TENSIONS or extensions, and are tensions 9 and 13. These pitches provide extra coloring to the chord sound and give the chord an extra zest when emphasized melodically or included harmonically. They sound this way because they both are a major 9th above a chord tone (or major 2nd, depending on how you look at it). D is a major 9th above the chord tone C, and A is a major 9th above the chord tone G. This leaves F, which is not a major 9th above E, but a minor 9th, and therefore is classified as harmonic "avoid" note, because it creates a lot of clash with the chord sound. This isn't to say avoid the note (the term is a misnomer in my opinion), but it just means you have to know how to use it.

There's a lot to go with the study of chord scales, and places like Berklee build their entire theory cirricculum around them. This isn't to say they are the be-all-end-all of harmony, but they do offer a lot of understanding as to how the pitches in a scale interact with each other and with the chord they're being used over.

ErikP.Bass · #13 01-15-2008, 06:52 PM

One thing I found interesting is how the chordal or harmonized scale can really be viewed as essentially three chords: the ii, V and I chords.

For example in the key of C.....

The I chord is C E G.
The ii chord is D F A.
The iii chord is E G B. This can be viewed either as its own chord, or as the 3rd, 5th and major 7th of the I chord.
The IV chord is F A C. This can be viewed either as its own chord, or as the 3rd, 5th and dominant 7th of the ii chord.
The V chord is G B D.
The vi chord is A C E. This can be viewed either as its own chord, as the 3rd, 5th and major 7th of the IV or as the 6th, root and 3rd of the I.
The vii is B D F. This can be viewed as its own chord but also as the V chord without the root or a V79 if the A is included.

Note for the most part the term chord used above essentially is interchangeable with triad.

An example of a chordal exercise would be to play the triads of a major scale ascending from each note of the root chord and its extensions.

The I in C for example (triplets)

Measure one : C E G - E G B - G B D - B D F
Measure two : D F A - F A C - A C E - C E G

Again I don't claim to know how to apply this stuff but it certainly is an interesting way of looking at things. I realize it takes a while for your ears and fingers to assimilate all this.

slugworth · #14 01-15-2008, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErikP.Bass

One thing I found interesting is how the chordal or harmonized scale can really be viewed as essentially three chords: the ii, V and I chords.

For example in the key of C.....

The I chord is C E G.
The ii chord is D F A.
The iii chord is E G B. This can be viewed either as its own chord, or as the 3rd, 5th and major 7th of the I chord.
The IV chord is F A C. This can be viewed either as its own chord, or as the 3rd, 5th and dominant 7th of the ii chord.
The V chord is G B D.
The vi chord is A C E. This can be viewed either as its own chord, as the 3rd, 5th and major 7th of the IV or as the 6th, root and 3rd of the I.
The vii is B D F. This can be viewed as its own chord but also as the V chord without the root or a V79 if the A is included.

Note for the most part the term chord used above essentially is interchangeable with triad.

An example of a chordal exercise would be to play the triads of a major scale ascending from each note of the root chord and its extensions.

The I in C for example (triplets)

Measure one : C E G - E G B - G B D - B D F
Measure two : D F A - F A C - A C E - C E G

Again I don't claim to know how to apply this stuff but it certainly is an interesting way of looking at things. I realize it takes a while for your ears and fingers to assimilate all this.

You're discovering modes, inversions and the chordal scale. You're on the right track...One thing I will agree with Carol on though, is don't bother with note scales except maybe a major and a minor. They're a complete waste of time. If someone centers their teaching technique around them, don't give them your money. Chords are the key, not scales.

Good luck
Slug

HaVIC5 · #15 01-15-2008, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slugworth

You're discovering modes, inversions and the chordal scale. You're on the right track...One thing I will agree with Carol on though, is don't bother with note scales except maybe a major and a minor. They're a complete waste of time. If someone centers their teaching technique around them, don't give them your money. Chords are the key, not scales.

Good luck
Slug

Or, the best of both worlds, chord scales.

slugworth · #16 01-15-2008, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

Or, the best of both worlds, chord scales.

"Scales are for fish"

Carol Kaye

I agree

Slug

Marcury · #17 01-16-2008, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

The theory behind chord scales is that for every chord in every given functional harmonic progression has a specific CHORD SCALE (occassionaly more than one) that goes with it.

This is not what Carol kaye is talking about when she refers to chord scales, nor is what most people refer to when they use the term. It refers to harmonizing the scale tones, not running scales or applying various scales/modes to chords. It is completely different from the Berklee method.

mambo4 · #18 01-16-2008, 03:08 PM

so "chord scales" in Carol's context is simply diatonic arpeggios played up the major scale. It's really the sort of exercise you can make up on your own as you study chord theory. I thought it might be more unique than that.

I can see how a first encounter with that exercise would open up your ears, though.

HaVIC5 · #19 01-16-2008, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcury

This is not what Carol kaye is talking about when she refers to chord scales, nor is what most people refer to when they use the term. It refers to harmonizing the scale tones, not running scales or applying various scales/modes to chords. It is completely different from the Berklee method.

Gotcha, thanks for the clarification.

bassandbeyond · #20 01-16-2008, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mambo4

so "chord scales" in Carol's context is simply diatonic arpeggios played up the major scale. It's really the sort of exercise you can make up on your own as you study chord theory. I thought it might be more unique than that.

There is more to Carol's method than just playing diatonic arpeggios. In her Jazz Improv for Bass book, she gets you into playing many kinds of hip chord substitutes, as well as diminished and whole-tone patterns. She doesn't present any of it as "scales", but the licks she teaches will get you playing all the good upper extensions.