Choosing the open string v. the 5th fret -- when?!

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by Patrickstar

First of All.....It all comes down to how disciplined you are in your playing. Most technically advanced players would stay away from open strings; A- because they sound different to fretted notes. B- Most techincally advanced players dont really travel down to 1st postition... Unless of course they have a 4 string and they need to play a low Fnat. You would only really use an open string in a melodic run if you were playing first finger on say the 9th fret or 8th fret. If you remain in first position all the time, and never use the 5th i believe your playing becomes poor, tight, inconsitent and very lazy. You wont be able to stretch and have reasonably fast chops. Also i believe open strings are bad for slap unless you immediately mute the open string, ie. PLay a D then a quick pull on to an A and B nat on the D, then playing a D on the G.... If you play open strings in slap to much There is to much reverb of the note... Thus defeating the purpose of slap....

Peace

I consider myself a technically advanced player and I disagree. The location of whatever notes I choose to use depends on what I'm trying to accomplish. Sometimes I'll even play a pattern in different positions just to work on consistency of tone. Sometimes an open string is easier to work into a line than a fretted note.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by bassjus

I've always been raised to pretty much enver play an open string, it's just instinct to me, I'll only use open strings when it's a fast run and it would take some weird position changes to not play open. I think part of this comes from me playing upright. Some teachers will tell you soemways, some tell you others. just do what you are comfortable with.

I always thought it was handy on an upright as a reference pitch. Same on fretless. On a fretted instrument I've never thought of them as something to stay away from. Why should I? They're all mine.

[Alvaro Martín Gómez A.]

I'm another one who avoids open strings because of the difference in tone. We talked about it with a fellow TalkBasser when I sent him my transcription of the "Barney Miller" theme in which there's an A note that can be played open or fretting the E string. But open strings are useful for avoiding string changes in fast passages. Many classic (in the generic sense of the word) composers took advantage of open strings. Domenico Dragonetti's double bass concerto, for instance, has a passage in the intro that is meant to be played using the open D string alternating it with "fretted" notes on the G string. AC/DC's "Thunderstruck" main guitar riff must be played entirely on the guitar's B string by alternate picking of open and fretted notes (that tapping thing in the video is a lie, BTW). Same thing for a passage in Stu Hamm's "Country Music".

This thread reminded me when lots of years ago I started to learn Iron Maiden's "The Rime Of The Ancient Mariner". Those four 16th notes (G-F#-E-D) that kick off the song and are repeated during one and a half measure as a lead-in for the second section may be played like this:

l ---------------------------------- l ------------------
l -5-4-----5-4-----5-4-----5-4----- l -5-4-----5-4----- (etc.)
l -----7-5-----7-5-----7-5-----7-5- l -----7-5-----7-5-
l ---------------------------------- l ------------------

Or like this:

l ----------------------------------- l ------------------
l -5-4-2-0-5-4-2-0-5-4-2-0-5-4-2-0- l -5-4-2-0-5-4-2-0- (etc.)
l ----------------------------------- l ------------------
l ----------------------------------- l ------------------

(I hate tabs but I don't want to open Finale, write the music, save it as an image and post it to ImageShack right now)

How would you play it? (Not necessarily to be answered. Just think about it) I practiced it the first way and played it during years like that (I think Steve does it) just because I thought "What if I have to play this in a different key?" And that's a valid point, but the second way is definitely more easier. If I had to play it now, I'd play it the second way because I feel very comfortable with it, and if the case of transposing it, just move to the first one. But the only thing that gives you that confidence is the experience. I'd never played that the second way years ago just because of the "fear of transposing" (and because I used to love challenges. Still do, but not so much time to practice now).

Edit: BTW, that signature bass section from "Rime..." (after the slow interlude) must be played using the open D.

[cowsgomoo]

I play Fenders, and by default my general choice would be to play a note on the A string over any other.... so if it's an A, i'd prefer to play the open A than the one on the E string... unless i've got some octave thing going on etc...

if I have to play a D, i like the sound of a fretted D on the A string than the open D string... it just usually sounds better to me... same with the E on the 7th fret A string... sounds better than D string 2nd fret

for my ear, each string has a sweet spot:

E string... between E & G#
D string.. between G and C
G string... between D and G

but the A string is sweet all the way up


so.. open A good... the others, not so good

[EPrendergast]

When I've gone up high for a fiddly solo bit or something similar I love to hit the open if it's the root... its like challenge and response. Anyone else do this?

[JimmyM]

I used to be dead set against open notes until I saw Standing in the Shadows of Motown. Bob Babbitt played all those great lines using open strings whenever possible and it sounded absolutely wonderful. So now I've started using more open notes when I play my Fenders. When I play my custom basses, I still shy away from them, but on a Fender I think it sounds great.

[Blunt]

A couple of points:
Tried playing the Lemon song bass licks without open strings lately. Well it ain't going to work.

Well of course geez, most of the time we use closed strings, Doh.

Try playing in a big band where everything is in Db, or Ab or heaven forbid Gb, you are sight reading the stuff and sure it gets easier with time. But no open string shifts when the chart is not usually written by a bass player is generally a pain in the arse. When you get to an open string key its a relief. Bb and Eb are fine.

You need open strings all the time when reading charts believe me unless you memorise the charts and work out the at times ridiculous position shifts that non bass player arrangers put in there all the time. As a working reader and practicing bassist i use open strings when needed. As i ahve said previously, its all about musical context.

And finally another real world example. the current chart of Love is Here to Stay that I read is just so much easier to play in the open position with open g string notes that I usually avoid. But in this case its part of a walking line and it just flows so easily under the fingers in this position.
Non-readers may diss the open strings, but for chart readers they are essential sometimes to play bass lines written not with the bass in mind. Any experienced reader would hopefully concur.

[BassChuck]

First teacher I had drilled me never to use open strings. 1) because of the sound (this has been noted several times) and 2) because once you "learn the pattern without open strings" you can transpose to different keys.

Well, that true of course. I've often thought of this and wondered about his motivation. It seems to me that if you are playing a style of music that is 'pattern oriented', like say, early rock or C+W, the need to transpose instantly on demand would be fairly rare. At least thats MHO.

Anyway, I rarely us open strings. Only in a fast passage to give me time to do a quick shift.

The 'zero fret' really works? I've never played a bass that had one.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by BassChuck

First teacher I had drilled me never to use open strings. 1) because of the sound (this has been noted several times) and 2) because once you "learn the pattern without open strings" you can transpose to different keys.

Well, that true of course. I've often thought of this and wondered about his motivation. It seems to me that if you are playing a style of music that is 'pattern oriented', like say, early rock or C+W, the need to transpose instantly on demand would be fairly rare. At least thats MHO.

YHO is ABOTM (a bit off the mark). Actually, the need to transpose instantly in early rock and C&W is quite important because of the many singers who do those songs in way different keys than the records. if our regular singer isn't there, I will sing some of his songs in a different key than what he does them in. And if I work with someone else, they will often do the same song in another totally different key.

Just because it's simple music doesn't mean there won't be someone to come along and make it complicated.

[whitedk57]

Originally Posted by WillBuckingham

There's a purpose of slap? I would be thrilled if you would enlighten me.

Yeah, it's to impress the newer players at the music store.

[Scot]

You shouldn't *rely* on "pattern playing" for transposition, IMO. You should really know your neck up and down, backward and forward and know how to play everything with open strings (where applicable and possible) and without (when possbile) and in all keys. You don't really know your neck and music theory well enough if you have to rely on moving patterns around to transpose. Sometimes it sounds better when transposing a line to use a slightly different fingering. When you know things inside and out you have more choices available to you.

It seems weird to me that there are teachers out there telling their students to avoid open strings. Forgive me for making this observation but that sounds to me like something a guitar teacher that also teaches bass would tell their students.

I'm with Blunt on this one. Some lines scream for using the open "A" and some for the fretted one. I think I probably use each equally.

Hope I'm not coming on too strong with this.

[whitedk57]

I am on the side of those who say "if it's there, use it". I find that the open "A" works perfectly on a song my band plays. It is the last note of the measure and is more boomy than the fretted "A". It works for me in that spot - so I'm using it.

[Pacman]

Originally Posted by WillBuckingham

There's a purpose of slap? I would be thrilled if you would enlighten me.

Sigh....

Sometimes, it's the right sound for the music. Stylistically correct, as it were. Come on, don't turn this into another one of those threads.

[lawrens]

some of my bass lines are really fast rythmic ostinato using only one string (most of the time A or D), with pulling off and slides...
i can't imagine other ways to play them without using open strings
it makes no sense to me

[txbasschik]

Originally Posted by drumsnbass

When does one choose open string over 5th? lots of times it seems when in first position it is just way easier to snag the opn string than stretch to the 5th. how do you all choose?

I find that, even though the open string is often easier to reach, the tone isn't as good, and harder to control. Only if I just *have* to, will I play the open string on anything but the low-E. With the fretted notes, the tone is more distinct, and you get less rattle and muddiness.

Cherie :-)

[westland]

Originally Posted by chips

Playing the note on the fifth fret will always sound fuller and fatter than an open string.

+1 ... there's no substitute for a fat string