Chops surpassing knowledge - frustration

BillytheBassist · #1 12-25-2007, 02:56 PM

I've been doing some shedding the past few weeks, trying to pinpoint areas that i need to work on. I've noticed that my chops are there for the most part...i mean, i can run up and down the fret board, i know some scales and some modes as well as techniques. I've established a tone and "feel" that i am totally happy with. But, I've been trying to just follow along with some music on pandora radio. So, i don't know what tune is coming up next, i'm just trying to follow and be in key. I've noticed that when it comes right down to it, i get stumped when trying to be in key and on time on the fly. I feel like i'm running blindly. I think this has alot to do with the fact that i don't read music and have no access whatsoever to a teacher in my area. So, i'm getting a bit frustrated as well as confused. I was hoping that maybe i could hear some advice from some seasoned players concerning what you did and if you were ever in the same rut. Just a little idea on what i'm into as far as music..... Jazz, straight jazz, fusion, nu jazz, as well as "some" funk. Any advice or tips' help would be greatly appreciated.
BTW Happy holidays.

Michael Case · #2 12-25-2007, 03:03 PM

Lots of listening, transcribing, I also studied from Ed Friedland's book "building jazz basslines." Rufus Reid's "the evolving bassist" is good as well as Chuck Sher's "the improvisers bass method." The books will require reading, but with the music you're saying you're into you should learn to read.

iamchipsmith · #3 12-25-2007, 03:04 PM

Im basically in the same place. I want to be able to hear something and jump right in.

BillytheBassist · #4 12-25-2007, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Case

Lots of listening, transcribing, I also studied from Ed Friedland's book "building jazz basslines." Rufus Reid's "the evolving bassist" is good as well as Chuck Sher's "the improvisers bass method." The books will require reading, but with the music you're saying you're into you should learn to read.

Thanks for the advice... yea i've heard about these books, the only thing that keeps me from purchasing them is my inability to read. Do you know of any books that teach reading? That would be ideal. Again thanks for the advice.

Michael Case · #5 12-25-2007, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillytheBassist

Thanks for the advice... yea i've heard about these books, the only thing that keeps me from purchasing them is my inability to read. Do you know of any books that teach reading? That would be ideal. Again thanks for the advice.

You're welcome. A good book for learning to read is Mel Bay bass method book 1. It's very easy and starts in half position with whole notes. In the meantime, figure out some basslines you like and practice arpeggios.

BillytheBassist · #6 12-25-2007, 04:47 PM

Thanks alot Michael, i'll find the book right away... i'll hit those arpeggios as well. Sort of feels like i'm starting back at square one but, it's all good if it gets me where i need to be.

canshaker · #7 12-25-2007, 05:02 PM

Sounds like you're just having difficulty finding the key. Is that correct?
What I do is sit at a piano. I DON'T look at the keyboard. Hit a note, and guess what it is. THEN I look to see if I'm right (or even CLOSE. HA!) It helps. I've kinda been able to develop perfect pitch that way.
Good luck.

BillytheBassist · #8 12-25-2007, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by canshaker

Sounds like you're just having difficulty finding the key. Is that correct?
What I do is sit at a piano. I DON'T look at the keyboard. Hit a note, and guess what it is. THEN I look to see if I'm right (or even CLOSE. HA!) It helps. I've kinda been able to develop perfect pitch that way.
Good luck.

It's not so much that i can't find the key.... i can find the key but, my ability to improvise and chord in a certain key on the fly is lacking, as well as bridging changes and keeping time without thinking. I guess thats my problem... i'm thinking about the key and correct structure too much to be able to play without thinking. I never really noticed it until just lately. I ordered the method book that Michael suggested from amazon.com. so hopefully after some work with these books i'll be on my way to a solution.

steveinohio · #9 12-25-2007, 05:31 PM

How long have you been playing? Really it just sounds like a lack of experience.

You seem to have a grasp on what you need to work on. Just keep playing. You will get that stuff.

lambro · #10 12-25-2007, 05:36 PM

learn them

also

limit barre chords & pentatonic blues licks on the guitar and tonic root playing on the bass, force yourselves to do something more interesting

BillytheBassist · #11 12-25-2007, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steveinohio

How long have you been playing? Really it just sounds like a lack of experience.

You seem to have a grasp on what you need to work on. Just keep playing. You will get that stuff.

Steve, i've been playing for the better part of 15 years.... just to make my situation a little more clear. I'm not a beginner by any means. I've played in a countless number of bands in the past covering many genres. I can play fairly well in my own mind..... i've been complimented by many musicians and listeners. I feel comfortable with my ability to play your ordinary backing basslines. In the past few years i've been getting turned onto jazz, wich inturn has caused me to take a very close look at my playing. Hence the title of the thread.... without wanting to sound big headed... I got chops for days man, i just want to know more deeply the language of music so i can play without thinking to much about what i'm doing. Like i said.... it feels strange to be looking at remedial instruction at this point but, i just want to know EXACTLY what i'm playing and where i can go in any given key on the fly. May not make sense but, it's the best way to describe my situation..... thanks for the encouragement.

Marcury · #12 12-29-2007, 12:01 AM

I found the thing that helped my ear the most is running chord scale arpeggios in all keys, starting with triads. For example in C: Cmaj, Dmin, Emin, Fmaj, Gmaj, Amin, and Bdim. After getting comfortable with this then do seventh chords and so on 9ths, 11ths etc. Also play through various progressions in this way. I found this approach much more helpful developing my ear to hear changes than running scales.

LzeroKI · #13 12-29-2007, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcury

I found the thing that helped my ear the most is running chord scale arpeggios in all keys, starting with triads. For example in C: Cmaj, Dmin, Emin, Fmaj, Gmaj, Amin, and Bdim.

While I certainly have much less experience than the OP, this exercise really helped me with being able to flow and play lines with unfamiliar tunes, in fact, I use it as part of my warm-up for any practicing.

SmittyG · #14 12-29-2007, 12:39 AM

Being able to jump into a song you may have never heard before is a skill set all its own. And, like any other skill set in music, you have to start slow and simple and build from there. I don't care how many scales you can blaze up and down the neck; if your first experience at playing by the seat of your pants is trying to lock in to a bop tune shooting 30 chords a minute past your ears, you are NOT going to have a good musical experience.

Start off with some classic rock or country or blues--stuff with moderate tempos and only three or four chords at best. Even if this type of music isn't what you want to play, chords are chords. Once you can pick these tunes up rather comfortably, then start moving up to the tougher stuff. Another thing, especially for jazz, make sure you can go through your cycles (4ths and 5ths) playing ii V7 I progressions -- you are going to hear them a lot.

BillytheBassist · #15 12-29-2007, 07:40 AM

Some good advice..... thanks guys.

dhemstra · #16 12-29-2007, 09:45 AM

If you want to know on the fly what notes will work you'll have to have a good ear or a good grasp of how chords are build and what scales you can play over them, but preferably you need both.

Playing some tune on the fly is all about practice; practice on recognizing intervals, progressions and chords. This takes loads of time to get up to the level you want to be, and god knows I'm nowhere near that level. hehe. Good luck I'm trying to do the same thing you are doing, just turning on the radio and trying to develop my ear.

~ Dennis

BAM2352 · #17 01-01-2008, 04:19 PM

I have just in the last 10 months moved over to bass from a 35 year stint on the guitar. When I am trying to pick out some bass lines, on the fly, I start out on the root note & try to weave slowley, small parts of any song first. Keep it as simple as you can, with the pentatonics maj & minors & things will start to flow, the more you practice the technique of improvisation, the better you get at it. I play by ear also & have picked up a lot from just listening. Good Luck

Jace The Bass · #18 01-01-2008, 09:05 PM

Since you know your major scale which I am assuming you do try singing the scale before you play it ie: Play patterns or segments of the major scale like 1-3-5 or 1-2-3-5,1-b3-5 etc ( If you don't know, the numbers are referring to the degree of the major scale so if were in the key of C ,1-3-5 would be C-E-G etc) but sing the pattern before you play it this will help link your ear to what you hear in your head but make sure you include every note in the scale right to it's octave another tip is when you've learnt your tune get your theory bk and find out why and what scale or chord the song uses depending on the style of music youré find out that each style uses certain patterns.
But the idea is to sing segments of the scale in your head and automatically transfer it on your fretboard but note this is an exercise so 10mins a day should be efficient enough so happy bassplayin

Bassguy87564 · #19 01-01-2008, 11:52 PM

Billy The only advise I have to give is find Root note first then work off of that. If its jazz you are trying to improvise over that can get tricky on its own. With alot of rock song the whole song is in one key the whole time, so it give you some more time to find the root note but with some jazz songs the key can change many times in a short period. Like this one piece I did pretty recently named "Tune Up" For 4 measures it would be in one key then change, after another 4 measures it would change again. From what I read about your experience you probable already know that music can do this and jazz does it alot. If you are trying to play with a jazz song like this on the radio with out music can be annoying, but if you want to be able to play along with songs like that you have to really develop your ear to hear key changes and what key it is.

The steps I go through quickly is first to listen to hear if its major, minor or anything along that line. Then find the rote note. After that I listen to chord patterns, from listening to the chord patterns and if you brush up on some theory you can kinda predict whats going to come up next. It doesnt work all the time to do this cause not all music goes by the books, but it will help alot. Next I listen for any key changes cause those can throw your groove off in a second. Once I hear one I start the process over again but I dont have to find the note as intensely as I do in the beginning. I just listen to the change in to the root note, how big of a change it was and if its high or lower pitch. Thats about what I do.

If you want to get to the point where you don't have to think anymore when you are playing you need a couple of things. You have to know every scale by heart as well as every note on your fret-board. I pointed to any random fret get to the point where you can name it in a second or less. Reading music does help with this but another way is when you are practicing say every note you are playing when you are warming up or doing exercises. Its kinda the same as driving if you don't the area you are driving in with out a map it is easy to get lost and not know where you are, but if you know the area you are driving in you can go anywhere you want to go easily. just think the frets as the roads if you dont know them its easy to get lost. well thats my couple of cents. I have to work on this ranting problem I have.

Michael Case · #20 01-02-2008, 10:28 AM

You need to develop your ears too. I should have added this earlier. Transcribing really helps in this department. You could also try to learn melodies of tunes by ear (simple ones of course). If you learn a melody try transposing it by ear, this will help you develop relative pitch as well as learning the fingerboard. Try learning the head of a blues tune, one I recommend is "Sonny Moon for Two" it's a Bb blues and the melody is based on the Bb blues scale. It's pretty simple to pick up. And remember learning jazz, like any music, takes time.