Chord Tone vs Scalar Approaches to improvising

[tomclarkebass]

Hi guys,

I've just started at music college and it seems that we're being pedalled two approaches to improvising bass lines (specifically in a jazz context). The first is termed the 'chord tone' approach where the basic arppeggio of the chord is taken as the staring point with the other notes being up for grabs as it were. The second is to apply a specific scale over specific chords (ie a lydian scale over a maj7 chord). I was wondering which approach the bass playing community as a whole favours, as I am quite new to jazz playing?

Cheers,
Tom

www.tomclarkebass.co.uk

[gmahoog]

Welcome to TalkBass.

It's funny you would be asking this question. Go to the "General Instruction" page. There is a multi-page thread with the title "Have scales ruined music?". A lot of good discussion there.

Have scales ruined music?

Both methods have their merit, but the old time jazzers seem to prefer the chord method.

[JimmyM]

Old time jazzers??? Trust me, it ain't just old time jazzers who prefer the chord method. You have to know scales to understand chords, but using scales to make music leads to this:

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Old time jazzers??? Trust me, it ain't just old time jazzers who prefer the chord method. You have to know scales to understand chords, but using scales to make music leads to this:

LOL!

Funny enough, I started out with a scalar approach and thought I understood what I was doing and how to apply it to improvisation. I didn't. It wasn't until I started working on chords that modes started to make sense and I was able to see their place in music.

In the end, it's two different approaches to the exact same thing. If you find one confusing after a week or two or playing around with it then I suggest stopping there and moving to the other to see if it makes more sense. I spent about a year on modes and didn't get far. I spent about a week with chords and my playing improved tenfold almost instantly.

[longfinger]

This has been dealt with many times on TB. Do a search.... ;-)

Welcome!

Back to you question, for a bassist, in the jazz idiom, thinking chord tones first will be more practical to a player. We're the framework in outlining the changes and need to have clarity in our playing. Playing (outlining) Roots, thirds and fifths of the chords give the bass line clarity.. Chord Compers will focus on thirds, sevenths, ninths.

In another point of view. Often we are playing 4 quarter notes per chord, or even just two quarter notes (or half notes) per chord. Thinking chord tones, we zoom in on the notes we want, and and not waste time with 7 note scales, with 3 or 5 notes that we're not playing.

That being said, understanding the parent key in question, will help us know which passing tones (chord extensions) to use (eg b9, or 9, b6 or 6) in between the main chord tones.

Also, it's good to learn the "stock phrases".
Root scale up to 5th
Root scale down to 5th
Fifth scale up to Root (often going up and down are different)
Fifth scale down to Root.

[vin*tone]

I'll answer your question with a question.......if you were to whistle a solo would you be whistling scales or chords? A: you probably wouldn't think about it.

Modes and chords are a means to an end. You practice them so you can train your mind to find the intervals that you hear in your head.

[Nev375]

Just play the notes that sound good in whatever random order you think best. Leave a few rests in there to make it sound musical. Maybe throw a wrong note in there for flavor.

If you throw the wrong wrong note in on accident, then do it again and smile proudly so they think you MEANT to do that.

Music is a lot like sex, it's best if you aren't over-analyzing it too much while you are trying to accomplish it.

[YellowJacket]

Chords, Scales, and music theory in general is collectively the grammar of music. It exists to explain why a certain style of music sounds the way it does. A big part of learning how to create basslines is to listen to lots of music so you can begin to 'hear in your head' the notes that need to be played. For instances, a great way to start is to transcribe basslines or find transcriptions of basslines to play. The chord tones and scales can be used to deconstruct the components of the bassline so you can figure out how to recreate something similar. (Like learning which ingredients one can use to cook spaghetti)

Personally, I teach my students chords AND scales because these are all practical tools to have when constructing a bassline. Ultimately, the goal is to become so proficient that these constructs can be abandoned in lieu of free improvisation.

[tomclarkebass]

Originally Posted by Nev375

Music is a lot like sex, it's best if you aren't over-analyzing it too much while you are trying to accomplish it.

So that's where I've been going wrong....

lol cheers guys thats really helpful... I get the holistic approach that your talking about Yellowjacket, it's something I aspire to but I think for the moment the chord tone approach seems to be the way forward as I'm finding it quicker to use on the fly (especially if I'm reading)

Thank you for your help,
Tom (Tom Clarke - Bass guitar Lessons, bass guitar tuition, bass teacher, Peterborough, Oundle, Stamford)

[Billnc]

Know enough scale theory to know how chords are built. Work on chord tones and approaches, scalar approaches after that will be very easy and more musical. The other way around, scale approaches to improv then chord tones doesn't seem to work so well.

[Alvaro Martín Gómez A.]

Check this video out (at the 7:49 mark).