Click Track for Live Use

[kirkm24]

About a year ago our church changed music directors. The old guy had a if it feels good, don't mess with it type of attitude the new guy demands perfection.

He is now feeding a click track into our in-ears, not just for rehearsal but for the actual worship services as well. It's not just the drummer he is feeding it into everyone's ears including the singers. I strive to play my best and be on time and I appreciate using clicks for practice purposes but I find it to be terribly inhibitive. Has anyone else experienced this?

[TL5]

I've played with click before. In the 80s I played in one of those bands that was mostly drum machines and sequenced synths. The click was imperative.
With a live drummer, I prefer that the drummer be the only one with the click.

IMHO, if everyone is gonna get the click track, the key is making sure you have the right sound for the click - not a drum sound (high hat for example) but something on the line of a pulse. It also MUST have a definite "one" on the down beat.

[60bass]

You stated in your OP that it was about a year ago that the new director came in. I was wondering if the new director started using the click early on or if it was just recently?

Has the type and scope of the music you perform changed recently? If you're now using alot of sequenced or pre recorded stuff then I can see it. However I too also prefer that just the drummer have the click.

Have you changed members recently or do you know of other band members who have shall we say "timing issues"? In particular the drummer? That might be the reason for the click track.

Honestly, I hate clicks and will go out of my way to avoid them if at all possible. Unless you are using the above mentioned sequenced, pre recorded tracks, or somebody has timing issues, I can see no valid reason for your group to be using a click track.

Is it possible that the new director has timing issues himself? I've seen this before. I did a recording once with a drummer that could'nt play without having a click. It was very wierd and I was glad when the sessions ended. Maybe the director is just too much of a perfectionist and he gets upset if it's not just exactly the way "he" thinks it should be. I've also been there, done that and it's no fun.

It must be bothering you somewhat or you wouldn't be here seeking advice. As a member of the group, you have every right to talk to the director regarding the click. Ask to meet with him one on one and ask his reasons for using it and if you feel his reasons are valid, ask that the click "not" be included in your feed. If you are up against a perfectionist type director, some of them just won't listen. If that's the case, you may have to consider moving on if you can't tolerate the click.

Just a little bit from Psalm 100:1 "Make a joyful noise unto the lord". I don't see anything regarding click tracks there

[TL5]

Follow up question:

You said,

He is now feeding a click track into our in-ears

.

Do you have a mixer for your IEM or a system like the Aviom or Hearback?
Can you simply turn the click off in your mix?

[SteveC]

Hmm. Our church isn't that particular. Maybe we just suck.

[StevieT]

We use click in our in-ears, maybe I'm just used to it. It keeps all the band members together better.
A couple years ago we picked up a "bass shaker" platform for us bass players to stand on (similar to the drummers "rumble seat") and I HATED it. After awhile I've gotten used to it, & they modded it per my requests.
My great grandma used to say "You can stand hanging if you hang long enough" ...Here I go rambling off farther and farther...where's my medication??

[kirkm24]

Originally Posted by 60bass

You stated in your OP that it was about a year ago that the new director came in. I was wondering if the new director started using the click early on or if it was just recently?

Has the type and scope of the music you perform changed recently? If you're now using alot of sequenced or pre recorded stuff then I can see it. However I too also prefer that just the drummer have the click.

Have you changed members recently or do you know of other band members who have shall we say "timing issues"? In particular the drummer? That might be the reason for the click track.

Honestly, I hate clicks and will go out of my way to avoid them if at all possible. Unless you are using the above mentioned sequenced, pre recorded tracks, or somebody has timing issues, I can see no valid reason for your group to be using a click track.

Is it possible that the new director has timing issues himself? I've seen this before. I did a recording once with a drummer that could'nt play without having a click. It was very wierd and I was glad when the sessions ended. Maybe the director is just too much of a perfectionist and he gets upset if it's not just exactly the way "he" thinks it should be. I've also been there, done that and it's no fun.

It must be bothering you somewhat or you wouldn't be here seeking advice. As a member of the group, you have every right to talk to the director regarding the click. Ask to meet with him one on one and ask his reasons for using it and if you feel his reasons are valid, ask that the click "not" be included in your feed. If you are up against a perfectionist type director, some of them just won't listen. If that's the case, you may have to consider moving on if you can't tolerate the click.

Just a little bit from Psalm 100:1 "Make a joyful noise unto the lord". I don't see anything regarding click tracks there

The new director implemented the click within a week after he got there. He didn't cite any one person but said we rushed on everything. I guess my contention is, it's better to rush together than for one guy to hold it down while everyone else takes off which sometimes still happens even with the click.

He is definitely a perfectionist and will not back down on the use of the click. His approach is to give the Lord your best by offering up perfectly performed music. While there might be some truth to it, it also "kills" the worshipful spirit of the music which is what worship music should be all about.

[kirkm24]

Originally Posted by TL5

Follow up question:

You said, .

Do you have a mixer for your IEM or a system like the Aviom or Hearback?
Can you simply turn the click off in your mix?

We use in-ears with a monitor mixer and he has instructed the monitor guy to keep the click level high in everyone's ears. We are getting Avioms after the first of the year and he has indicated that the click track will not be an editable channel on the Aviom units.

[kirkm24]

We've had a few drummers quit and another bass player who was a professional, Gospel bass player quit after getting in a fight with the director over the click among other things.

It just makes the music feel very square and rigid. I guess I like the eb and flow and breathing of less regulated music. I'm not advocating rushing and dragging but being precisely locked into a click track can rob the artistic element of music.

I forgot to mention the click is set up in 16ths with a emphasized downbeat on the 1. The 16ths actually make me push ahead because I am hearing so many "fast" notes in my ear. It's a subconcious tendency for me. For me, it's easier to lock in with a regular 4 clicks per measure setup.

My wife and I have actually started visiting another church (for other reasons than the click..obviously) and the new church doesn't use the click since they have wedge floor monitors so maybe things will work out better for me if I can start playing there.

[kirkm24]

Originally Posted by SteveC

Hmm. Our church isn't that particular. Maybe we just suck.

That's pretty much what our new director told us in not so many words. He also announced that he is actively looking for new musicians to join the team. Why would he say this to us?

He has even gone so far as to hire in professional musicians who don't go to our church or any church for that matter. I learned that when I came in the next weekend and my in-ears smelled like pot. Turns out he had brought in a local jazz bass player for our weekend services the week earlier.

[Bardley]

I am one of the sound techs at my church and I occasionally fill in playing bass and I think that is crazy that he is that stiff about using a click. When the director stops taking others opinions and reasonable requests into consideration, that's when I would kindly suggest that he find another bass player. I doubt the Lord wants the the music perfect more than he wants a unified worship team.

Tell him there's some nice CD soundtracks out there...

[nightcityburn]

Sounds like he is missing the boat on what worship really means. People don't want the illusion of perfectly performed music, and it doesn't leave much of an oppurtunity for the music to go in any sort of organic direction.

Originally Posted by kirkm24

We've had a few drummers quit and another bass player who was a professional, Gospel bass player quit after getting in a fight with the director over the click among other things.

It just makes the music feel very square and rigid. I guess I like the eb and flow and breathing of less regulated music. I'm not advocating rushing and dragging but being precisely locked into a click track can rob the artistic element of music.

I forgot to mention the click is set up in 16ths with a emphasized downbeat on the 1. The 16ths actually make me push ahead because I am hearing so many "fast" notes in my ear. It's a subconcious tendency for me. For me, it's easier to lock in with a regular 4 clicks per measure setup.

My wife and I have actually started visiting another church (for other reasons than the click..obviously) and the new church doesn't use the click since they have wedge floor monitors so maybe things will work out better for me if I can start playing there.

[phatbass]

Originally Posted by kirkm24

I forgot to mention the click is set up in 16ths with a emphasized downbeat on the 1. The 16ths actually make me push ahead because I am hearing so many "fast" notes in my ear. It's a subconcious tendency for me. For me, it's easier to lock in with a regular 4 clicks per measure setup..

Having a 16th note click is absurd, in my opinion and experience. Has this guy ever been in the "real world", music-wise?

[Sahm]

I would talk to the pastor. It's not right that someone is acting like a dictator when folks are mainly just there to worship. Unless you're one of these churches that has multiple bands, and can then set aside one as the "pro-sounding" one, it should be treated like a community activity.

[wideload]

Sounds like he's striving for attrition through irritation. OK for a commercial group, hard to fathom for a worship team. If there are time problems, then rehearse more or buck up and ask the offending parties to reconsider their dedication and calling to worship presentation. Our group only has members of the church as regulars; specials or hired guns are just that- one-time guests for worship. But then, we suck...

By the way, doesn't your director realize that click tracks always drag? Every one I've used has!

[kirkm24]

Keep in mind that the church is about 8,000 people so the level of excellence or expectation thereof might be higher. This guy came from another very large church and is pretty well regarded in the worship community (at least that's what I was told). Everyone except for him is a volunteer except for when he brings in hired guns. The church has 3 bands and then a "super band" that also has about a 50 person choir (the choir doesn't get the click BTW).

Anyway, my wife, daughter and I have started attending another church. I just wanted to open up the discussion to see if other worship players have had to deal with a click track in a live setting and if so what their opinions are.

[60bass]

Originally Posted by kirkm24

The new director implemented the click within a week after he got there. He didn't cite any one person but said we rushed on everything. I guess my contention is, it's better to rush together than for one guy to hold it down while everyone else takes off which sometimes still happens even with the click.

That's "exactly" what I thought when I read your post. I agree that once a tempo is going you have to roll with it slow or fast. It would be interesting to see where this guy's been prior to coming there and see if he was well liked at his previous jobs. As far as rushing goes, he might be somewhat right if you are covering other peoples material but you still should be able to insert some of your own "artistic" talent on anything you play. How do the other band members feel? If you're serious about remaining and others feel the same, go to the pastor as a group and voice your concerns. However if the new director is a friend of the pastor, forget it. I'd like to think my house of worship is above politics but I KNOW from past experience that it ain't so.

He is definitely a perfectionist and will not back down on the use of the click. His approach is to give the Lord your best by offering up perfectly performed music. While there might be some truth to it, it also "kills" the worshipful spirit of the music which is what worship music should be all about.

Perfectly performed music Pardon my french but that's pure BS. You are right, the spirit of the music is what counts.

After reading the other posts here and your response, I think you will have to move on. The fact that he's bringing in other musicians is the clue that it's his way or the highway. You don't need that and for sure NOT at your place of worship. If you do decide to leave, the thing about the POT should be brought to your Pastors attention. I'm OK if somebody wants to partake, but church is not the place.

Take care and keep us informed how you make out with all this.

[kirkm24]

Originally Posted by 60bass

That's "exactly" what I thought when I read your post. I agree that once a tempo is going you have to roll with it slow or fast. It would be interesting to see where this guy's been prior to coming there and see if he was well liked at his previous jobs. As far as rushing goes, he might be somewhat right if you are covering other peoples material but you still should be able to insert some of your own "artistic" talent on anything you play. How do the other band members feel? If you're serious about remaining and others feel the same, go to the pastor as a group and voice your concerns. However if the new director is a friend of the pastor, forget it. I'd like to think my house of worship is above politics but I KNOW from past experience that it ain't so.



Perfectly performed music Pardon my french but that's pure BS. You are right, the spirit of the music is what counts.

After reading the other posts here and your response, I think you will have to move on. The fact that he's bringing in other musicians is the clue that it's his way or the highway. You don't need that and for sure NOT at your place of worship. If you do decide to leave, the thing about the POT should be brought to your Pastors attention. I'm OK if somebody wants to partake, but church is not the place.

Take care and keep us informed how you make out with all this.

Politics play a very large part in it. He is definitely "in" with the pastor and even if he wasn't, I would talk to him. The pastor is not a very approachable person and doesn't like to be bothered with "petty" stuff like this.

This new director has been able to do anything he wants since he came in the door. The church has invested tens of thousands of dollars on new equipment because he wanted it. The last guy had to fight hard to get a guitar pick (an exaggeration but you see my point). A lot of the other musicians have been pretty upset about all of this too and many have already left the church. My wife and I have officially left the church but worship was not the primary reason for this decision.

In saying all of this, the guy is a great guy off stage. I have enjoyed talking to him. He just brings a whole new culture into the ministry that wasn't there before. If it works and worship gets better, who am I to judge? I guess if I am not on board with his vision, I need to just get out of the way. So that is what I have done. I wish him and the ministry all the best.

[Dave Muscato]

One of my regular gigs has a MD who prefers we play to a click track. He also uses personal monitor mixers so I could take the click completely out of my mix if I wanted to, but I don't (I just turn it mostly down—I can hear it best when someone's off-tempo, or during grand pauses; the rest of the time it pretty much blends into the drums).

IMO/IME a pro player should be able to play along with a click without trouble if the producer/music director needs him to. It's like sight-reading; it goes with the territory of being a working player. Sometimes you need these skills, sometimes you don't, but you should be able to do them and do them well if you're called upon.

I agree that gig politics are BS, but IMO that has little to do with the click track question, if you ask me... It just takes practice.

When you practice at home, do you use a metronome? Just curious.

FWIW, I prefer not to use click tracks live, because of ritardandi, but I have no problem with them if that's what the boss wants... My job is to play the bassline according to his/her instructions, the way I see it.

[JimmyM]

My band's keyboardist and I have a saying when an act we work with wants us to do something that annoys us..."Can't hear it from my house." Then we do it and forget about it after it's over.

I suggest the same approach to you, Kirk. I also suggest that instead of getting bent over it, just go with it and maybe try to learn something. Sure it's a little inhibitive now, but that gets better with time. Just do your best and go with it would be my advice.