counting 16th notes in your head

[sleeplessknight]

Hey all, I'm doing some serious metronome work to clean up my 16th note feel (Thanks Victor Wooten Groove Workshop!), and all is well and good until I bump the 'nome up around 70-80bpm. I can physically PLAY an uncomplicated 16th-note groove up to about 100-110 bpm, but at 70 I just can't seem to COUNT the damn "one-e-and-a-two-e-and-a-three-e-and-a..." fast enough. My brain gets all muddled up and I lose time. Has anyone else experienced/overcome this problem? Is there a better mnemonic to knowing where one is when counting 16th notes?

--Lee

[basmartin]

Skip the "one e and e two e etc" and use the Indian way, counting "ta-ka-di-mi" for each quarter note. Kai Eckhardt demonstrates that way of counting in his clinic at www.bassplayer.tv

[improvpwnd]

Originally Posted by basmartin

Skip the "one e and e two e etc" and use the Indian way, counting "ta-ka-di-mi" for each quarter note. Kai Eckhardt demonstrates that way of counting in his clinic at www.bassplayer.tv

Been taking private lessons from Kai for a couple months now. This technique is amazing..

[Audiophage]

Originally Posted by basmartin

Skip the "one e and e two e etc" and use the Indian way, counting "ta-ka-di-mi" for each quarter note. Kai Eckhardt demonstrates that way of counting in his clinic at www.bassplayer.tv

That actually would have helped me out a lot earlier on so I didn't have to think to not make the "and" the same length as the "1", "e", and "a" in my mind.

If you guys like that, then maybe try out konokol too. John McLaughlin has a good DVD out that you can use as an introduction.

[Jonathan Herrera]

Not to self-promote, but I wrote a piece for Bass Player that might be helpful for those interested in Konnakol: http://www.bassplayer.com/article/ju...k/jun-08/85653

It's really incredibly useful, not only as a more natural way to subdivide 16ths in your head, but as a way to explore odd metric subdivisions and superimpositions. AND, it's a beautiful art form unto itself.

Whilst on the percussion-vibe, can I again plug the works of Mr Jerry Leake

http://www.rhombuspublishing.com/clave.html

I think that to be honest these grooves are more useful to a bass player, as the konokol stuff rarely leaves large gaps. It's very clever and intricate, but the fine resolution of konokol is better suited to a higher pitched instrument.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Herrera

Not to self-promote, but I wrote a piece for Bass Player that might be helpful for those interested in Konnakol: http://www.bassplayer.com/article/ju...k/jun-08/85653

It's really incredibly useful, not only as a more natural way to subdivide 16ths in your head, but as a way to explore odd metric subdivisions and superimpositions. AND, it's a beautiful art form unto itself.

I like this konnakol stuff. I never had problems with "1-e-and-a" but konnakol seems less unwieldy. I'm at the point now where I can subdivide in my head without any of it, but I would definitely look into konnakol counting if I were starting out again.

[basmartin]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Herrera

Not to self-promote, but I wrote a piece for Bass Player that might be helpful for those interested in Konnakol: http://www.bassplayer.com/article/ju...k/jun-08/85653

It's really incredibly useful, not only as a more natural way to subdivide 16ths in your head, but as a way to explore odd metric subdivisions and superimpositions. AND, it's a beautiful art form unto itself.

Thanks! I didn´t really got the name of it in Kai Eckhardt clinic...

[Captain_Arrrg]

First of all to the OP, just learn one-e-and-a... for the same reason you should learn any western theory- It better facilitates communication between musicians.

Now that's out of the way, there's nothing wrong with Kannakol or using it in western music, I just think that is best learned with Indian music. It's use when playing suladi sapta tala drives it home.

Anyone interested in non-western rhythm schemes might also want to check out kuchi shōga.

[Hoover]

Originally Posted by Captain_Arrrg

First of all to the OP, just learn one-e-and-a... for the same reason you should learn any western theory- It better facilitates communication between musicians.

That there is great advice.

But to the OP: It's important to know how to refer to those 16th note subdivisions as "1-ee-and-a" but that doesn't mean it's important to actually say "1-ee-and-a" to yourself while you're playing. The whole point of subdividing is to be conscious of those subdivisions, and your brain is capable of slicing & dicing at infinitely faster tempos than your mouth (or your "inner mouth") can articulate.

[smithal3]

Here's what I did... I focused on two things:

Keeping the speed of both of my fingers the same.
Only counted my lead finger (my middle...usually).

By only counting my lead finger, I only had to count to eight divisions instead of 16. Also, if you are doing it in your head, try counting from 1-8 instead of 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +. As long as YOU know the difference, it doesn't matter how you think of it in your head, just know that if you ever need to communicate to someone else about the specific subdivision you are on, just say "The offbeat between the 1 + 2" or whatever.

[sleeplessknight]

Oh man, that ta-ka-di-mi stuff was EXACTLY what I was looking for! I've been doing that for the past couple of days now, and my 16th notes and accents are tight like prom-night between 80-110bpm! Thank you guys so much, I had a very important audition tonight and I effin' NAILED it thanks to you! I definitely would have been stuck had I tried continuing on with sub-vocalizing 'one-e-and-a', etc (although I do 'know' it so I can communicate effectively with other musicians, it just falls apart on me at medium-to-high tempos for some reason).

[neptoon]

i'm an igga digga burr (hugga lotta fur?) kinda guy, myself

[Hoover]

Originally Posted by neptoon

i'm an igga digga burr (hugga lotta fur?) kinda guy, myself

I must confess, I learned how to subdivide quintuplets by saying "homosexual"

[ErebusBass]

I just count 1+2+3+4+ twice as fast.

So what... I'm a bass player.

[bpm2000]

Originally Posted by ErebusBass

I just count 1+2+3+4+ twice as fast.

haha thats pretty much what i was thinking reading this whole thread!

[basmartin]

Originally Posted by sleeplessknight

Oh man, that ta-ka-di-mi stuff was EXACTLY what I was looking for! I've been doing that for the past couple of days now, and my 16th notes and accents are tight like prom-night between 80-110bpm! Thank you guys so much, I had a very important audition tonight and I effin' NAILED it thanks to you! I definitely would have been stuck had I tried continuing on with sub-vocalizing 'one-e-and-a', etc (although I do 'know' it so I can communicate effectively with other musicians, it just falls apart on me at medium-to-high tempos for some reason).

You´re welcome!

[ZonGuy]

I liked the Ta ka di mi but I have used 1 e & ah for years with no problems.

A strong instinctive 16th groove does not develop overnight. It takes months of commited practice. I think if I was teaching a student, I would be sure the qtr note groove was there (easy), then the 8th note (slightly harder) and then the 16th (much harder). Sight reading James Jamerson and Jaco transcriptions was the epiphany for me.