Dealing with death grip

[Michael Case]

Just remember that what you do in your practice will take a while to show up in your "real" playing. Just keep practicing "thumbless" and work on relaxing the grip. Eventually it will be a habit and you'll just play that way. 99% of playing is habit.

[tranceFusion]

Originally Posted by unclejane

No - you should NEVER have to push or pull or grab with the arms to stabilize anything. The arms should ALWAYS be RELAXED, never pushing or pulling on the body, neck or anything else.

Don't try to fret without using the thumb - thats what the thumb is for. But that's the only place you should have tension in the arms...

I completely disagree. Using your hand or fingers for repetively applying pressure to anything (computer keyboard, guitar, etc.) will put you on the fast track to injury.. There should not be tension between your thumb and your fingers..

[Fergie Fulton]

Thr technique of practicing with out appling the thumb to the back of the neck is one of the best ways to understand hand pressure. Tension, let us not confuse that with pressure, tension is a muscle inhibetor, tense muscles do not work effectivly.

You can apply pressure and stay relaxed, you cannot with tension.
Tension is the un-seen factor in player technique, and leads to fatigue in muscles. Stress or worry about an impending line in a song that you have trouble with or even a song creates tension. That causes you to makes mistakes in that situation and heightens the tension for the next time you play it.

So it is in the fretting hand, you can apply lots of pressure without tension, but why would you?

"Death grips" are caused by not understanding what you are doing with your hands and fingers, the object is to lift off from the strings with the fingers, not push down on the strings.

Check out the link and the other blogs for some more info

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?f...ogId=475980040

[Michael Campbel]

I'm new, so take this with a grain of salt, and this might not be your issue, but... I just had my (SX cheapie) set up by a guy who does that for a living, and WOW what a difference. I was really having to SQUEEZE to get the string down to the fret, and being new, didn't really know any better.

Now that I know what CAN be, wow, what a difference. (And the guy who set it up said I COULD go lower if I had to, and wanted to spend a bunch more time and money on it.)

[Bocete]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

Thr technique of practicing with out appling the thumb to the back of the neck is one of the best ways to understand hand pressure. Tension, let us not confuse that with pressure, tension is a muscle inhibetor, tense muscles do not work effectivly.

You can apply pressure and stay relaxed, you cannot with tension.
Tension is the un-seen factor in player technique, and leads to fatigue in muscles. Stress or worry about an impending line in a song that you have trouble with or even a song creates tension. That causes you to makes mistakes in that situation and heightens the tension for the next time you play it.

So it is in the fretting hand, you can apply lots of pressure without tension, but why would you?

"Death grips" are caused by not understanding what you are doing with your hands and fingers, the object is to lift off from the strings with the fingers, not push down on the strings.

Check out the link and the other blogs for some more info

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?f...ogId=475980040

That is truly a nice read. No forcing the correct thumb position all the time anymore. And I don't quite understand your "lift the fingers off the fretboard" thought? Shouldn't it be best to let your left hand float, the fingers moving like there is no neck to obstruct them?

Originally Posted by Michael Campbel

I'm new, so take this with a grain of salt, and this might not be your issue, but... I just had my (SX cheapie) set up by a guy who does that for a living, and WOW what a difference. I was really having to SQUEEZE to get the string down to the fret, and being new, didn't really know any better.

Now that I know what CAN be, wow, what a difference. (And the guy who set it up said I COULD go lower if I had to, and wanted to spend a bunch more time and money on it.)

Good setup is very important. It's not that hard to do it right yourself, though. There is a ton of setup tutorials here, you might enjoy going through them and, in the end, enjoying the wonderful setup you did yourself

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by Bocete

That is truly a nice read. No forcing the correct thumb position all the time anymore. And I don't quite understand your "lift the fingers off the fretboard" thought? Shouldn't it be best to let your left hand float, the fingers moving like there is no neck to obstruct them?



Good setup is very important. It's not that hard to do it right yourself, though. There is a ton of setup tutorials here, you might enjoy going through them and, in the end, enjoying the wonderful setup you did yourself

I will try and keep this as simple and free from technical terms.

The action you need to play most string instruments involves developing muscle co-ordinating that invoves lifting the fingers away from the fretboard. Put your hands flat on a table, spread out your fingers. Now lift them one by one off the table as high as you can, holding each one up for 5 seconds, relax and the finger returns.

This action is not one found in daily life for most, the opposite action of closing and gripping is the common one. The hands and fingers get more than enough exercise in this motion from life but not of the opposite motion of lifting.

Part of the problem of fretting is taking the fingers off and on, but it is the lifting off part that many get wrong and because of this the putting on part suffers. Many see the problem as the putting on part, not the lifting off.

Your fingers are controlled from your forearms, the muscles in the forearm contract and relax in opposite pairs. Muscles only pull so they need to work in pair to achieve action. So muscles pull your hands and fingers open, then opposite muscles pull the back to close. This happens all over the human body where jointed movement occurs for motion.

The sensation in your hands is like your fingers bounce over the strings and you control that bounce in fretting notes, hence why your technique needs to be tension free. Tension will not allow this to happen. hold a drum stick tight and hit a drum, one note is produced, hold it light and many notes are produced. A drummer produces motion in one direction and controls the reaction in the other so the motion can be re-directed back. Ask any drumer to produce a roll on his kit and you will understand if you watch then try it.

A healthy hand has a natural curl to it, a nuetral position it holds when relaxed. motion can be achieved either side of this position, i.e. you can extend and close the fingers past that point. Two ways to do this,
1/ You open your fingers then close them using the muscles to pull them open then pull them closed. This action is very physical, as in fast flowing lines it is using energy and producing waste. Like any energy there is waste, the waste your muscles produce is lactic acid. lactic acid build up slows and ultimatly stops muscle motion, that's its job to protect overworking muscles. A short rest to let the muscle recover and your fine, thats why fatigue happens to slow you down or stop you so you do not damage the muscle.
So you pull the hand closed with one muscle group then the opposite group take over and pull it open. This is the motion of the fingers in essence, moving back an forward away from and to the neck.

2/ You open your fingers, relax that muscle group and as you fingers come back let the other group now take over to close them. relax them and as the fingers open, let the other group take over to pull them open, and so one. This action uses the muscle groups better, so lactic acid is slower to build and easier to get rid of as it does, so fatigue is less.

Like i said with practice it is like bouncing you fingers over the strings, you control the bounce to fret the notes. That's why pressure is not an issue as such because the pressure is always relieved with the relaxed motion in the technique.

If a player plays a root note for bars at a time, then tries to prouce runs of motion, his movement is inhibited because of the static time and pressure he has used on the long root. If he bounces his fingers, but not enough to affect the sound of the note he is fretting, when he moves he will move with fluincy, because his fingers have not been held static on the neck.

This is why the thumb should be allowed to move to support what the fingers are doing, not grip the neck to inhibite the fingers. This is why you can play without the thumb touching the neck, but why would you? The thumb is the culprit in most hand injuries, along with mis-use and over use or the hands. We as humans were nerver designed to play instruments LOL mother nature is not that good or forward thinking, so playing bass is not natural to the body. The ergonomics of the bass have been design then the best technique for that design, not for the body. With modern materials and knowledge we are improving and understanding more about how the body and these instruments work and how to minimise there impact on our bodies.

There are many factors in this and if you are not a full time musician, your day job will impact on your playing more than you want. It is usually a players day job that is the problem in his technique and the type of injuries they get, it is the playing that highlights them...... not causing them.

[unclejane]

Originally Posted by tranceFusion

I completely disagree. Using your hand or fingers for repetively applying pressure to anything (computer keyboard, guitar, etc.) will put you on the fast track to injury.. There should not be tension between your thumb and your fingers..

You have to push the strings against the fingerboard somehow. The ideal is to be able to do that as economically as possible. I've never heard of not using the thumb at all on the fretting hand being correct technique, beyond its use as a diagnostic tool for fit or technique problems.

Most situations where you have to hold the instrument to do this are caused by a poorly designed (for the player) instrument. The main culprit is poor balance (neck dive) which forces the player to hold the neck up with the fretting hand (forcing you to use more than the minimum amount of thumb/finger pressre needed to fret the instrument) or with the plucking hand (having to push with the forearm on the body, this kind of thing). All of these add extra effort where extra effort should not be required.

So you have to diagnose and fix these fit problems first. Then you can get on with the business of correct technique.

Most of the time, the player isn't even aware that there's a problem with the instrument and continues to think it's merely a technique problem.

In my own case, I didn't realize I was fighting poor balance until fairly recently. Once I figured this out and, at least partially, started working around it with my current instruments, there was a dramatic improvement in my technique and reduced susceptibility to injury.

My next bass, due to arrive in about 3 or 4 weeks, actually has proper balance as its primary feature (carvin bunny brunel). My G&L's don't balance very well but I'm able to compensate for this partially and am now able to play them with significantly reduced tendency towards injury. I sound a little better as well.

LS

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by unclejane

You have to push the strings against the fingerboard somehow. The ideal is to be able to do that as economically as possible. I've never heard of not using the thumb at all on the fretting hand being correct technique, beyond its use as a diagnostic tool for fit or technique problems.

Most situations where you have to hold the instrument to do this are caused by a poorly designed (for the player) instrument. The main culprit is poor balance (neck dive) which forces the player to hold the neck up with the fretting hand (forcing you to use more than the minimum amount of thumb/finger pressre needed to fret the instrument) or with the plucking hand (having to push with the forearm on the body, this kind of thing). All of these add extra effort where extra effort should not be required.

So you have to diagnose and fix these fit problems first. Then you can get on with the business of correct technique.

Most of the time, the player isn't even aware that there's a problem with the instrument and continues to think it's merely a technique problem.

In my own case, I didn't realize I was fighting poor balance until fairly recently. Once I figured this out and, at least partially, started working around it with my current instruments, there was a dramatic improvement in my technique and reduced susceptibility to injury.

My next bass, due to arrive in about 3 or 4 weeks, actually has proper balance as its primary feature (carvin bunny brunel). My G&L's don't balance very well but I'm able to compensate for this partially and am now able to play them with significantly reduced tendency towards injury. I sound a little better as well.

LS

This is a great point in hand (forgive the pun) and if you have nothing to compare your instrument to you would never find this point out. The thing about a neck dive bass is it teaches the players to rest the neck on the base of the fingers and have the fingers do most of the work.
The great thing about this is that the wrist is held straight to achieve this position and the fingers take a correct bend and flex. the fingers 3 joints and depending on the health of the hands pressure is quite even on each joint. when the hands is held clear and the wrist flexed to keep the hand away from the fretboard to let the fingers have better access, a lot of the pressure appears at the knuckle joint rather than being spread across the whole finger.

The bad thing is the lack of access to the fretboard, but you can move to the position you require for access then return. You do not have to maintain a single position and slid that up and down the neck, you can and should take positions that allow access for what you are playing at that moment in time.

Many debates will advocate certain positions and techniques, but the human hand has many different facets to deal with in each individuals. What works for one does not work for another.

in an attempt to copy Jaco or Jeff Berlin you may do more damage than good because you don't have the physical features there hands have. You see the end result but not the journey to it. Also you do not see or hear of any problems they may have had or started to develop. This is all without any genetic conditions player may have or inherented from parents.

There are many factors but a well balanced instrument is a must really for any technique.

[Bocete]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

I will try and keep this as simple and free from technical terms.

The action you need to play most string instruments involves developing muscle co-ordinating that invoves lifting the fingers away from the fretboard. Put your hands flat on a table, spread out your fingers. Now lift them one by one off the table as high as you can, holding each one up for 5 seconds, relax and the finger returns.

This action is not one found in daily life for most, the opposite action of closing and gripping is the common one. The hands and fingers get more than enough exercise in this motion from life but not of the opposite motion of lifting.

Part of the problem of fretting is taking the fingers off and on, but it is the lifting off part that many get wrong and because of this the putting on part suffers. Many see the problem as the putting on part, not the lifting off.

Your fingers are controlled from your forearms, the muscles in the forearm contract and relax in opposite pairs. Muscles only pull so they need to work in pair to achieve action. So muscles pull your hands and fingers open, then opposite muscles pull the back to close. This happens all over the human body where jointed movement occurs for motion.

The sensation in your hands is like your fingers bounce over the strings and you control that bounce in fretting notes, hence why your technique needs to be tension free. Tension will not allow this to happen. hold a drum stick tight and hit a drum, one note is produced, hold it light and many notes are produced. A drummer produces motion in one direction and controls the reaction in the other so the motion can be re-directed back. Ask any drumer to produce a roll on his kit and you will understand if you watch then try it.

A healthy hand has a natural curl to it, a nuetral position it holds when relaxed. motion can be achieved either side of this position, i.e. you can extend and close the fingers past that point. Two ways to do this,
1/ You open your fingers then close them using the muscles to pull them open then pull them closed. This action is very physical, as in fast flowing lines it is using energy and producing waste. Like any energy there is waste, the waste your muscles produce is lactic acid. lactic acid build up slows and ultimatly stops muscle motion, that's its job to protect overworking muscles. A short rest to let the muscle recover and your fine, thats why fatigue happens to slow you down or stop you so you do not damage the muscle.
So you pull the hand closed with one muscle group then the opposite group take over and pull it open. This is the motion of the fingers in essence, moving back an forward away from and to the neck.

2/ You open your fingers, relax that muscle group and as you fingers come back let the other group now take over to close them. relax them and as the fingers open, let the other group take over to pull them open, and so one. This action uses the muscle groups better, so lactic acid is slower to build and easier to get rid of as it does, so fatigue is less.

Like i said with practice it is like bouncing you fingers over the strings, you control the bounce to fret the notes. That's why pressure is not an issue as such because the pressure is always relieved with the relaxed motion in the technique.

If a player plays a root note for bars at a time, then tries to prouce runs of motion, his movement is inhibited because of the static time and pressure he has used on the long root. If he bounces his fingers, but not enough to affect the sound of the note he is fretting, when he moves he will move with fluincy, because his fingers have not been held static on the neck.

This is why the thumb should be allowed to move to support what the fingers are doing, not grip the neck to inhibite the fingers. This is why you can play without the thumb touching the neck, but why would you? The thumb is the culprit in most hand injuries, along with mis-use and over use or the hands. We as humans were nerver designed to play instruments LOL mother nature is not that good or forward thinking, so playing bass is not natural to the body. The ergonomics of the bass have been design then the best technique for that design, not for the body. With modern materials and knowledge we are improving and understanding more about how the body and these instruments work and how to minimise there impact on our bodies.

There are many factors in this and if you are not a full time musician, your day job will impact on your playing more than you want. It is usually a players day job that is the problem in his technique and the type of injuries they get, it is the playing that highlights them...... not causing them.

Thanks, a great read again. It's inspiring

It makes sense, but I'm not sure I understand the "bouncing" feel you're aiming for; English is not native to me. I have tried putting my hand in the "neutral" position, that is opening the hand and than relaxing it. It's got a curve of a slightly smaller basketball, I guess. But I cannot fret like that, without engaging muscles. I need to "close" the middle and ring finger a bit to align the fingertips, and still I cannot fret using a single finger without applying some force, no matter how I try. You'd have to trust me that the bass is set properly, low action etc.

However, even trying to play like that is so.. effortless it redefines a light touch, in my eyes at least. I'm going to keep working on that. For now, when I play that lightly even my plucking is so light you can hardly hear the unplugged bass played.

Anyway, it's important to note that bass is a hobby of mine; I'm a programmer by day, and that surely doesn't help. One more reason why not stressing wrists while playing is vital to me.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by Bocete

Anyway, it's important to note that bass is a hobby of mine; I'm a programmer by day, and that surely doesn't help. One more reason why not stressing wrists while playing is vital to me.

Its not something that's happens over night, it takes years to develop. What it will do is is give you the sensation of "bouncing" which will be less of a grip than you have. The thumb away from the back of the neck will do the same for you in practice to give you the feeling of lighter touch.

But ultimatly and sorry to say your job will always negate these things. As a programmer your hands and fingers get more daily use than a human hand was designed for, so stretching and some exersice away from the bass is requred to negate what your job does to your hands.
The exercise of putting your hands flat on the table and lifting the fingers as mentioned is a great one for that. You can do it at your desk through out the day to help relax your hands. Another is to put a suitable elastic band around the base of your finger nails and thumb and open the fingers using the resistance of the elastic band to a full stretch to strengthing the muscles in the hand and forearm. This one is good because once you find the right elastic band for the job you can do it anywhere, on both hands. In the UK the postal service red ones are great, they are soft enough to do the job and are found in the streets LOL.

Here is a link to one of the worlds top hand doctors and a man who plays so he understands the problems. There are 5 pages so read them all.

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/3.12/mccarthy.html

I

[tranceFusion]

Originally Posted by unclejane

You have to push the strings against the fingerboard somehow. The ideal is to be able to do that as economically as possible. I've never heard of not using the thumb at all on the fretting hand being correct technique, beyond its use as a diagnostic tool for fit or technique problems.

Most situations where you have to hold the instrument to do this are caused by a poorly designed (for the player) instrument. The main culprit is poor balance (neck dive) which forces the player to hold the neck up with the fretting hand (forcing you to use more than the minimum amount of thumb/finger pressre needed to fret the instrument) or with the plucking hand (having to push with the forearm on the body, this kind of thing). All of these add extra effort where extra effort should not be required.

Unfortunately, people who have the worst technique are often beginners, who are also the most likely to have a cheap bass where less attention has been paid to proper balance. I don't think it is worth discouraging those people by telling them "There's nothing you can do, your bass sucks". Using your right arm to stabilize the bass is far superior to holding the neck up.

However, I am not really talking about neck dive. I am talking about using the right arm to stabilize the neck from moving in a horizontal motion as you fret. As you mentioned, economy of motion is important, so you shouldn't be applying a ridiculous amount of pressure by fretting, but countering that force ever so slightly with your arm will take alot of the tension off of your hand.

Someone mentioned being a programmer - I am on too. With the bad economy, I get to stay at work even longer these days (yay!). At the end of the day, any little relief that I can get off of my hands and onto a body part better able to handle it, the better.