Difference between Swing and Shuffle

[champbassist]

I found this in the Wikipedia article for Swung Note:

In shuffle rhythm, the first note in the pair is exactly twice the duration of the second note. In swing the division is inexact, and varies depending on factors such as how fast or slow the music is, on the genre of music, or the individual tastes of the performer, from almost equal (typically at fast tempos) to almost shuffle (typically at slow tempos).

But, like most of us, I wouldn't want to rely totally on the Wikipedia definition. So, is this correct?

[S. Katz]

Originally Posted by champbassist

I found this in the Wikipedia article for Swung Note:



But, like most of us, I wouldn't want to rely totally on the Wikipedia definition. So, is this correct?

Also, I'm not too sure if this goes in General Instruction or Technique. So, excuse me if you think I've made a mistake.

Correct. Another way to think about it: A shuffle is an implied triplet (the middle note is omitted, and the first note held through it). Swung notes are long at the top of beat, shorter on the back of the beat, to give that propulsive feeling into the top of the next beat.

[pbasswil]

Originally Posted by S. Katz

Correct. Another way to think about it: A shuffle is an implied triplet (the middle note is omitted, and the first note held through it). Swung notes are long at the top of beat, shorter on the back of the beat, to give that propulsive feeling into the top of the next beat.

I hadn't thought about it that consciously, but that sounds like a really good summary.

A couple of things to note:

- The actual percentage of swing (relative time duration ratio of the on-the-beat and off-the-beat hits) can vary hugely, depending on the style of groove, and the tempo. And in some styles, shuffle timing can vary significantly too, even if it _is_ implying triplets.

- The feel is further finessed by how much or how little accent is applied to off-the-beat parts. That's a big part of making it feel right, for a given style and tempo!

[S. Katz]

Originally Posted by pbasswil

I hadn't thought about it that consciously, but that sounds like a really good summary.

A couple of things to note:

- The actual percentage of swing (relative time duration ratio of the on-the-beat and off-the-beat hits) can vary hugely, depending on the style of groove, and the tempo. And in some styles, shuffle timing can vary significantly too, even if it _is_ implying triplets.

- The feel is further finessed by how much or how little accent is applied to off-the-beat parts. That's a big part of making it feel right, for a given style and tempo!

True. I can't imagine playing a shuffle (or about anything else) without swinging.

By the way, this is what I think is Jeff Berlin's point when he advises against practicing with a metronome. (And then gets flamed from a million different directions.) Time breathes when music works--beats get longer, beats get shorter--metronomes don't. If you played everything straight up and down the beat it would sound stilted.

[80'sRocker]

only 2 letters difference

[champbassist]

Originally Posted by 80'sRocker

only 2 letters difference

And that means?

[cgnortheast]

I've got a close friend is a fantastic drummer. All his beats have real life in them...perfect timing etc....pertinent to this thread he is an excellent swing and shuffle drummer.
His suggestion to me was practice with a metronome sometimes, sometimes without. BUT when playing with the metronome, feel the beat and play around it....then turn it off. Of all the advice I've ever gotten, this is the best piece.