Does the three finger picking technique really help that much?

DioMANOWARDio · #1 12-09-2011, 12:48 PM

Hi, recently i've been getting into Heavy Metal, bands like Death, Amon Amarth, Black Sabbath, Cerebral Bore and so on. I wan't to start playing some Heavy Metal and i think i'm capable playing it with 2 fingers, so is 3 fingers really necessary?

And how long would it take for someone to succesfully master the technique.

Thank you.

topo morto · #2 12-09-2011, 01:02 PM

It will help a lot for some lines, a little for others, and might be more difficult for some. It's just another technique, another string to your bow.

For me it was a few weeks before it started feeling natural, and a couple of months before starting to use it with my band. To master? Longer still... but then I'm getting old... and I'm a pretty newb bassist anyway

JP Morin · #3 12-09-2011, 01:13 PM

would help for triplets kind of stuff for sure... Some use it and get pretty fast and succesful using it. It takes a lot of practice to get an even strike from the 3 fingers, especially for fast straight picking riffs...

I prefer to use it now and then and mixing with 2 fingers or flicking, depending on whats is needed... I use it since around 2002, at that time I was trying to emulate Les Claypool kind of riffs...

To play fast you can also use flicking, like R. Trujillo or Geddy Lee uses sometimes (or watch Brian Beller video explaining it on Bass player magazine...) I prefer to use that...

topo morto · #4 12-09-2011, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JP Morin

It takes a lot of practice to get an even strike from the 3 fingers

I don't think you even can get a totally even strike - after all, they're hitting the string in different places along its length... the trick is to make that work with what you're playing, or use volume accents to fit it...

Fergie Fulton · #5 12-09-2011, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by topo morto

I don't think you even can get a totally even strike - after all, they're hitting the string in different places along its length... the trick is to make that work with what you're playing, or use volume accents to fit it...

That's the beauty of it is that each strike has its own nuance, trying to make each note sound the same is in my opinion is a flawed pursuit.

ShredderMaximus · #6 12-10-2011, 01:12 AM

Theres being able to pull things off with 2 fingers, then theres pulling things off with 2 fingers for an entire set. Incorporating the third gives you much more endurance, especially if your playing anything with alot of really fast parts. I started learning 3 finger technique just so I wouldn't have to start using a pick because my 2 fingers just refused to do 200+ bpm 16ths.

Groove Doctor · #7 12-10-2011, 06:13 AM

I started 3 finger IMRM IMRM etc over 20 yrs ago. It allows me to punch out driving 16ths around 300-320 notes/min for a whole song, and not fatigue for rest of the gig.
Whilst I can play just as fast two fingers, I get tired faster and it affects subsequent songs.

About the triplet problem, practicing 'independence' is crucial.
Play IMR MIM RMI MRM - until you don't have to think anymore. Then it's auto-pilot for years to come.

Eater_of_Birds · #8 12-10-2011, 06:36 AM

In my experience (which isnt huge) it helps a lot, you can go faster and you will wont tire as quickly.

As groove doctor said it takes practice to avoid doing triplets everywhere and keeping a straight rhythm between every hit, but you just have to put a little emphasis on the 1 until it becomes natural. I still use 2 fingers for a lot of stuff but 3 is an excellent technique to learn, if its good enough for the king Alex Webster, its good enough for me.

topo morto · #9 12-10-2011, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groove Doctor

About the triplet problem, practicing 'independence' is crucial.
Play IMR MIM RMI MRM - until you don't have to think anymore. Then it's auto-pilot for years to come.

I don't quite understand why you've divided them into 3's like that? Do you mean you want a triplet feel, or you want to avoid a triplet feel?

Groove Doctor · #10 12-10-2011, 03:44 PM

Have you tried playing it yet? I am referring to overcoming FINGER PATTERN habits eg. IMR IMR, or RMI RMI.

Key point: you need to unlearn something before you can truly learn something new.

I found I kept slipping back to that old pattern when playing quadruplets, until I discovered a way to break that bad habit....

You 'swap' or reprogram your natural tendencies to want to play triplets the old way by developing a NEW habit for playing triplets. Relearn a new 'default' pattern I described.

My brain-fingers automatically play this way (IMRMIMRM) now regardless of whether I'm playing duplets ( IM RM IM RM), triplets( IMR MIM RMI MRM), quadruplets ( IMRM IMRM), in 5 ( IMRMI MRMIM RMIMR MIMRM), in 6, 7, etc.

Sounds complex? Took months of hard work, but it's easy now coz I don't even have to think anymore, my fingers just do it. Try it!!

topo morto · #11 12-10-2011, 04:10 PM

I was reading too much into your separation into three - your point is that you can use the same finger pattern for any rhythmic pattern, right?

I think the same, except I basically chose to go RMI. Rhythmically, that can become RMI RMI RMI RMI, or RMIR MIRM IRMI RMIR... or even RMIR MMII if I'm raking, which I do...

The reason i chose that is for efficiency - you're only using each finger 1/3 of the time. In any other pattern (apart from IMR), at least one finger is going to be used more than that.

So, at the moment, I don't want to break the RMIRMI habit - I've consciously chosen to go that way.

You're the one with the experience though (I'm a bass newb, and I only started playing with 3 fingers even more recently), so I'm just wondering what you think is the advantage of your IMRMIMRM pattern?

Groove Doctor · #12 12-10-2011, 04:36 PM

Great question:
Before TB I thought it was 'the only way', but I'm realizing it's OK to do things differently -IF- they work better for you than someone else's suggested way.

However, one teacher insisted a few playing techniques right from the start that has made playing SOOO much easier.

So I say try them both and you decide.

topo morto · #13 12-10-2011, 04:54 PM

Or learn both and use each where appropriate, I guess (if that's even possible!). I am sure IMRMIMRM will work better if you need steady 8ths or 16ths (and if you don't rake).

DioMANOWARDio · #14 12-10-2011, 04:55 PM

Thanks alot for your suggestions. I just have one more question if thats alright.

If i do end up learning playing with three fingers just so i have another technique in hand will it effect my 2 finger technique at all? I don't know if i can explain that better but will i be able to play with 2 fingers as fluently as i can now if i take up the three finger technique?

jabsys · #15 12-10-2011, 04:57 PM

I play the same way as Groove Doctor, IMRM although no where near as fast.

To me the advantage of IMRM is it keeps the beat on the index finger otherwise I get tend to get lost on fast 16th's and it doesn't sound like triplets, which I couldn't stop IMR IMR sounding like.

I could probably practice enough to play the same speed with 2 fingers but using 3 lets me play longer without getting tired.

InfidelicBass · #16 12-10-2011, 05:06 PM

Will I be able to play with my 2 finger technique as fluently as i can now after learning the 3 finger technique?

Buxtehude · #17 12-10-2011, 05:06 PM

I think that the ring finger is hard to get a good sound from and places the wrist in a disadvantageous (for me at least) position. I can play really fast with 2 fingers and good alternation habits. I do use the ring finger for jumping strings upwards and also in a classical guitar shape for chording and where there is a constant alternation of strings. Others have used 3 fingers successfully and I'm not knocking the technique, but those who I've seen use it seem to have no more speed and facility than good players (think Jaco) who use 2. For me the ring finger is purely situational.

topo morto · #18 12-10-2011, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buxtehude

I think that the ring finger is hard to get a good sound from and places the wrist in a disadvantageous (for me at least) position..

I used to think that (and was ready to give up on 3 finger) until it was pointed out somewhere on TB that when you bend your fingers, the tips of your ring, index, and middle line up pretty straight - at least, this is true for me.

So if you play with your hand a bit flatter to the strings so that your fingers bend 90 degrees (which should be pretty natural if you use floating thumb), there's no real change in hand position to add the third finger... at least this is true for me. So I decided to give 3 finger a go.

Groove Doctor · #19 12-10-2011, 08:34 PM

Very well explained!! To avoid injury, keep the wrist in neutral position and spread the 90 degree 'curve' in fingers across all three finger joints. This puts all 4 fingers and thumb on the same plane.

This position allows better transition and even volume between two and three finger technique, thumb style (fatter tone), slap, chord technique (4 fingers + thumb), or mixtures of each in the same song.

I picked a lot of this up by trying to learn Abe Laboriel's technique. Same hand position but:
He plays Thumb, Index, Middle, Ring - TIMR (or in Spanish its called PIMA as he took it from Spanish guitar technique).
he half slaps/half plucks the strings with his thumb (down and up IIRC).

I didn't quite get there but developed my own hybrid of the techniques I described above. I wished someone had taught me this AND told me why it works so darn well when I was first learning!!!!

topo morto · #20 12-11-2011, 04:05 AM

Yeah, Abe Laboriel is interesting to watch, especially if you haven't considered playing with thumb before! You can get some African/Spanish sounding stuff going by using/adapting his techniques (well, at least if you get good at them!)

I am also hoping that my finger techniques will one day come together into a hybrid style, but for now I pretty much divide the techniques I'm practicing into -

- using thumb and fingers (though I find that TRMI happens more naturally than TIMR - or even just lock the fingers together and just use 'thumb' and 'fingers')

- straight fingerstyle, with 2 or 3 fingers (trying to move towards 3, but with many songs I'm still more confident with 2)

- slap and pop (which I am just starting to learn.... not too keen on the typical slappin' 'n' poppin' sound, but I'd like to be able to pull it out for an accent in the right place in the song...)