Doublers - Worried About Wrecking My Electric Technique With Upright

[jaywa]

So, after 28 years playing electric bass I've started messing around with the upright, mostly on bluegrass stuff. I am having a LOT of fun with it, but am a little worried as I could already tell after just an afternoon of playing the upright that my 78 P-Bass felt like a toy in comparison. Especially the string tension.

I have worked hard over the years to develop a good "touch" on the electric bass and I have gotten a lot of compliments about it. What do I need to do to make sure the strength I gain playing the upright doesn't ruin my technique on the electric? I kind of feel like the basketball players that don't want to lift weights cause it will "ruin their shot".

Any insights or advice would be greatly appreciated.

[smithal3]

If you switch to a fretless...

[Cairobill]

I double and noticed an exponential improvement in my technique after I started playing the double bass.

My harmony, time and even taste also improved remarkably once I started seriously studying the great double bassists like Ray Brown, NHOP, Mark Johnson etc

In a nutshell, I found playing/studying double bass REALLY good for my electric playing.

But (drum roll) get a very good teacher.

Cheers

Cairo

[jaywa]

Originally Posted by Cairobill

My harmony, time and even taste also improved remarkably

I noticed this right away. I just can't physically do some of the runs and pet licks on an upright that I do on an electric, so I really have to simplify on the upright and choose my notes wisely. Also, positions are much more important.

[Asher S]

I agree- get a teacher, at the least to show you proper hand positioning on the DB. You should really not need to exert that much more pressure with your grip. The strength for playing the DB is supposed to come from your arm/shoulder rather than your grip. A good teacher can demonstrate this to you in 5 minutes, then you can practice it for 5 months, so you can play for 5 hours without fatigue...

[jaywa]

I'm actually more concerned about my right (plucking) hand getting "overbuilt" than my fretting hand. Since I play electric bass about 95% fingerstyle. I would really hate to get carpal tunnel or something from having to pluck the DB strings so hard relative to an electric. OTOH my fretting hand could actually probably benefit from the exercise of the higher DB action.

[Jim Carr]

Originally Posted by jaywa

I'm actually more concerned about my right (plucking) hand getting "overbuilt" than my fretting hand. Since I play electric bass about 95% fingerstyle. I would really hate to get carpal tunnel or something from having to pluck the DB strings so hard relative to an electric. OTOH my fretting hand could actually probably benefit from the exercise of the higher DB action.

Actually, the real danger is not an "overbuilt" anything, it is the eventual destruction of the base thumb joint of your left hand. A few years of excessive pressure--which is easy to do and sounds great--and you are in deep trouble on ALL stringed instruments. Serious arthritis and joint wear await.

Advice from a longtime double bass/electric bass doubler: Get a real double bass teacher, and a setup with low tension strings and low action.

[jaywa]

Fortunately, the double bass I've been playing (a friend of mine's) has extremely low action. In fact it is set-up better than any upright I have ever seen (less than 1/4-inch between the string and the board at what would be the 5th fret...). So that is helping a lot. Also it has a transducer pick-up built in so I will amplify it whenever I can to avoid having to pluck it so hard. Which may not play well with some of the bluegrass purists, but, oh well.

[TimoMetzemakers]

What Jim said. Many believe that playing DB is very muscular, but actually it's all about being very relaxed, using gravity to one's advantage, and pulling the strings from the arms/shoulders/back rather than "plucking" or "fretting" them with your hands.

It's a totally different instrument, really, so if you study with a good teacher and play DB with correct technique, it shouldn't affect your EB technique too much. The only thing is that you will develop bigger calluses that might change your sound on electric, but some hand lotion should take care of that.

[TimXSweeney]

John Patitucci talks all the time about having to shed both instruments constantly, specifically for touch. I myself, as a doubler, find this to be true everyday. All so, the sooner that you accept that they are 2 different instruments... and treat them so, the sooner that you will be able to distinguish the technique.
I was at Daddy's music in Boston a week ago and I saw a freshman at Berklee slapping an upright... and he didnt play rockabilly.

[jaywa]

Originally Posted by TimXSweeney

I was at Daddy's music in Boston a week ago and I saw a freshman at Berklee slapping an upright... and he didnt play rockabilly.

OMG and LOL.

[Jim Carr]

Originally Posted by jaywa

Fortunately, the double bass I've been playing (a friend of mine's) has extremely low action. In fact it is set-up better than any upright I have ever seen (less than 1/4-inch between the string and the board at what would be the 5th fret...). So that is helping a lot. Also it has a transducer pick-up built in so I will amplify it whenever I can to avoid having to pluck it so hard. Which may not play well with some of the bluegrass purists, but, oh well.

Fine, but low action alone is not enough, IMHO, and the idea of a built in pickup in a double bass is downright repellant--unless this an electric upright bass (EUB), not a double bass?

Get a bow, a double bass teacher, and practice both instruments for the unique voices that they give you. With good technique, practice habits, and set up, you should be fine.

[Jim Carr]

Originally Posted by TimXSweeney

...I was at Daddy's music in Boston a week ago and I saw a freshman at Berklee slapping an upright... and he didnt play rockabilly.

Originally Posted by jaywa

OMG and LOL.

News Flash: The upright has been slapped for nearly 100 years, somewhat before Rockabilly--even before Rock or HillBilly!

[jaywa]

Just for background, the upright I've been playing is a Kay, circa 1950s (I think my friend said), and 3/4 size. And I probably misspoke to say the pick-up was "built-in"... it is clearly an add-on to the original instrument. What I meant is that the bass now has a place to "plug in".

The multiple responses to get a teacher are appreciated. There's a guy in town who plays upright in the local symphony and is also a first-call electric bassist so it sounds like I need to look him up. I'll probably never spend a lot of time playing an upright out in public and may never make a dime off it, so the majority of the practice time I do have will probably continue being devoted to the instrument that brings in the $$ (electric)... but the advice given here will be very helpful so I can at least present myself passably on the instrument and not injure myself in the process. Thanks again.

[j.stemmler]

Originally Posted by TimoMetzemakers

What Jim said. Many believe that playing DB is very muscular, but actually it's all about being very relaxed, using gravity to one's advantage, and pulling the strings from the arms/shoulders/back rather than "plucking" or "fretting" them with your hands.

It's a totally different instrument, really, so if you study with a good teacher and play DB with correct technique, it shouldn't affect your EB technique too much. The only thing is that you will develop bigger calluses that might change your sound on electric, but some hand lotion should take care of that.

+1

just relax, and use the weight of your arm to pull the strings on the upright.

as far as your electric chops, they should stay the same if not get better. since starting upright about 2.5 years ago, i rarely practice on my electric anymore. but i find when going from upright to electric, when i do pick up my electric, it is much easier

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by j.stemmler

+1

just relax, and use the weight of your arm to pull the strings on the upright.

as far as your electric chops, they should stay the same if not get better. since starting upright about 2.5 years ago, i rarely practice on my electric anymore. but i find when going from upright to electric, when i do pick up my electric, it is much easier

Getting better, perhaps, but that's likely because you've been growing as a musician, not because technique "transfers." I know for a fact that I have to shed both instruments very thoroughly to keep my technique up to speed on both - at least an hour a day on each. There is a very constant battle to keep the chops together on both instruments. If you think that your upright technique applied to electric works for you, fine, but there is way more you could be doing. It's exactly the same principle when a guitar player picks up a bass and thinks he can apply his guitar technique without making any modifications.

Touch is the main issue. On upright bass, learning how to use gravity to your advantage is the main concern, but the way gravity applies to electric bass is of little use to the electric player. There is a far more "guitaristic" approach to transferring muscle power to the fingers, and in a sense there is a much larger degree of nuance involved, even on fretted basses (fretless basses even moreso).

[jaywa]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

Touch is the main issue. On upright bass, learning how to use gravity to your advantage is the main concern, but the way gravity applies to electric bass is of little use to the electric player. There is a far more "guitaristic" approach to transferring muscle power to the fingers, and in a sense there is a much larger degree of nuance involved, even on fretted basses (fretless basses even moreso).

Exactly, and that's the crux of my original question and concern. After just an hour of playing upright, I picked up my electric and could already tell I was clamping down on the neck too hard and plucking the strings too heavily. I.e., playing the electric with more brute force and less finesse than I usually do. That's what I don't want to have happen the more I start playing upright bass.

[bigblondeafro87]

Even on upright, you should be able to press down the strings on the fretboard with your thumb off the neck. The thumb should be used for very little pressure, or you are asking for issues.

Absolutely 100% get a teacher or you are going to be suffering in a few years of playing.

When plucking, use a lot of meat, go for a big fat tone and relax your arm. I use a different part of my finger tips for electric, and I use different muscles, so upright techinque doesn't change my habits. I'd have to say playing upright has increased my right hand stamina.

Don't collapse your finger joints, or you are asking for trouble.

I've been playing upright for about 10 months now and it has drastically improved my playing on both instruments, just make sure to play both instruments every day if you want to stay proficient on both.

[HaVIC5]

Even on upright, you should be able to press down the strings on the fretboard with your thumb off the neck.

Well, it depends on what kind of strings you have on your upright bass. If you have high tension strings, it doesn't really matter how low you set your action, you're going to need to put some pressure in some form or another on the thumb. The trick is learning how to redirect that pressure to the forearm by thumb/elbow/forearm placement. That's where a teacher comes in.

[StyleOverShow]

Originally Posted by TimXSweeney

John Patitucci talks all the time about having to shed both instruments constantly, specifically for touch. I myself, as a doubler, find this to be true everyday..

This is perhaps the biggest challenge to playing more than one 'type' of instrument. During my mostly daily workouts, I touch a fretted, fretless and eUB just to keep my muscle memory going on each. It is hard work.

As for the OP question, it makes you a better player. Would like to acknowledge some great comments made about pulling the strings and reducing the complexity of bass riffs as you move between basses.

-richard