Drummer locking in with you

MissingHighs · #1 07-18-2011, 05:25 AM

Searched and found nothing on this, so apologies if this has been covered before. Anyway, here goes....

When one researches the role of a bassist, it's almost inevitable the term "you need to learn to lock in the with drummer's right foot" pops up on the screen. But, in order to be a "rhythm section" is there not a rather large degree of "the drummer locking in with you" required so that the two of you sound like one?

Maybe the drummers on this forum might wish to comment on "do you value the bassist as much as the bassist values you?".

M. <><

Broomwinkle · #2 07-18-2011, 05:32 AM

From a bass players perspective the drummer will be locking in with you in the sense that the drums are wrote around the guitar 99% of the time, so you will be sticking to the structure of the guitar in some way so the drummer will be locking with you.

On the other hand if your in a jam project/band you might be just improvising a solo over the drummer in that case you'll have to worry about locking in with him over him locking in with you.

greggster59 · #3 07-18-2011, 05:37 AM

The drummer in the original band I recently joined is very experienced and rock steady. We had a discussion about this and agreed that the best approach to take is that I should lock onto to his beat.
As I get more familiar with the material and the drummer gets used to my playing his intention is to sometimes go with my lead.

As long as you are syncing up in some fashion you will keep the band tight. How this gets done is up to both the drummer and the bassist.

Tevin · #4 07-18-2011, 05:41 AM

I've been playing with this drummer for almost a year. We got chemistry and we pretty much anticipate each other which makes the music better

baker311 · #5 07-18-2011, 06:58 AM

Yes, drummers totally appreciate a solid bass player and vice versa of course. For that matter its great to have an entire band that a good sense of time. I think its bogus to make the bass player or drummer the time sheriff. Everyone should practice having good time/tempo. This is important for everyone in the band to lock in with each other.

Experience plays a large role in locking in IMO. For instance if I am playing bass and the drummer is less experienced, he will lock on to me. Same goes if I am the drummer and the bass player is less experienced. All in all though, I think its important for bass and drums to listen to each other so you are both locked in to each others playing. This creates great chemistry.

If I hear a bass player throw in some extra little groove I am usually right there following him, and again vice versa.

I don't buy into this, your role as a bass player or etc.. is to do this one specific thing. Your role as a musician is multifaceted.

baileyboy · #6 07-18-2011, 07:02 AM

It is essential for me to have chemistry and be able to "lock in" with the drummer. I won't even waste my time trying to play with drummers that haven't taken the time to learn their craft and play competently.

Phalex · #7 07-18-2011, 07:08 AM

My drummer and I are so simpatico that we actually screw up together! It's really kind of awesome when we both drop the beat at the same time, and continue on like we meant to do that!

I love that guy!

MissingHighs · #8 07-18-2011, 07:43 AM

Great comments! Keep them coming.

I would like to skew the thoughts just a little; it wasn't so much an issue of time keeping, but what about groove? Some of you have already intimated that the drummers pick up on where you're leading (assuming to mean softer on a verse, building up into a chorus, etc. i.e. dynamics) and they are following your lead on this, while you're doing the "good bassist thing" and locking in with their kick. The Internet is full of "a bad bassist or drummer can foul up a performance"; can this be interpretted as "he might be a brilliant time-keeper, but he only had one volume..... flat out!"? Maybe asked a slightly different way; what would make you never want to lose the drummer you play with?

(and for those of you who say "chemistry", any chance you could define the qualities that make this?)

M. <><

baileyboy · #9 07-18-2011, 07:54 AM

(and for those of you who say "chemistry", any chance you could define the qualities that make this?)

Hard to quantify "chemistry" in this case... basically, you either feel and sound good playing with each other, or you don't.

makkE · #10 07-18-2011, 08:57 AM

Chemistry to me means that you relate to the other guy's way of playing - in such a way that you can sense where he's going or not, that you can feel what's going to happen next in splitseconds. I've had this with a couple of guys so far, mostly when I was on drums myself...

I think what people call "chemistry" is simply having a very similar approach to things, or in some cases, having matching musical influences/backrounds. I recently met a guy who played rythm guitar just as I do - I know I could have played to his stuff with eyes closed on drums or bass without thinking. Sort of like speaking the same language/dialect musically.

"Locking in with the drummer" - to me it doesn't only mean playing along with his right foot - this works great in some genres (and is sufficient), but not in all genres. To me, it's more about being able to sense the drummer's feel/groove and to fully "lock in" with it. Doesn't really matter if you hit the same beats all the time - more like having the same flow on things.

On the other hand, from my experiences in drumming, the drummer has to focus a lot on reacting to what he's given goove/feel-wise from guitarrists or bassists (or anyone else).
A good drummer is a good listener. If a drummer just bashes away on "his stuff", it's harder to click with him.

shtik · #11 07-18-2011, 09:37 AM

I think there is no rule about that. The drummer should be all of these things. He should be the time sheriff and at the same time listen to other players, the singers and make sure everything is under control.

A drummer that doesn't listen is bad. So does a drummer that is so insecure about his tempo and will only rely on others to lead him.

It is a combination of everybody listening and feeling secure about themselves as well as relying on everybody else that makes the band sound tight.

For me a good drummer is one that you don't need to always look at him and be alert all the time about his moves. Sometimes when the drummer is good but you see there are places he could be more solid, I find it very helpful moving and dancing in the groove and making him respond to that.

If you find yourself concentrating in locking with the drummer it means something is not working well, most of the time his inner tempo is not solid, his time cues are all messed up, even had one that the hands weren't in sync with his legs, so you don't have anything to lock to... It just won't sound right.

Bottomdweller · #12 07-18-2011, 09:53 AM

I have experience as a bass player, guitar player, and drummer. I think everyone plays off of everyone else at one time or another depending on the situation. I feed off of the guys that I'm playing with. But, as has been said earlier, everyone needs to have some sense of time but also everyone has to use their ears. It's a symbiotic relationship. It's not each person up there playing their own thing. If you're playing in a good band with good players with good chemistry, there is and ebb and flow to the music.
As a bassist, I tend to listen to the drummer and the guitarist and be the glue. But, I can definitely influence what's going on by how I play. It definitely depends on the structure of the band as to whether I would do that or not. But, I often do

Beller · #13 07-18-2011, 10:05 AM

I make it a point to pay close attention to the drummer, especially the kick, but find it to be oh so gratifying when the drummer says to the sound guy, "Make sure I'm getting plenty of the bass in my headset." Its gotta be mutual to be the best. IMHO.

Russell L · #14 07-18-2011, 10:18 AM

Something that hasn't been mentioned is that a drummer should be familiar with the bass part of every song. It's not always the case that the bass player has a choice about what to play, as some parts are what they are, and must be played that way. At that point it is the drummer who must coordinate with the bass line.

One band I play with has a drummer who offers me nothing to coordinate with. He likes to hit too many notes on the bass drum, and has no sense of groove. It is not fun to play with him.

ghiadub · #15 07-18-2011, 10:24 AM

Who is following who depends on the situation. On some songs I am playing after the beat, my drummer needs to keep his own tempo and not let my bass slow things down.

On other songs, I am driving things and maintaining the tempo (sometimes with ghost notes).

As far as specific accent patterns on the bass drum coinciding with my bass notes, we feel thru that based on the collective band and how the rhythm is playing out in real time.

pbagley · #16 07-18-2011, 10:30 AM

Another perspective for what it's worth.

Band #1 - Drummer tends to speed up. I end up playing way back on the beat. This is an unnatural place for me personally - I tend to like to be a touch forward on the beat but still very close to dead on and locked in on the drummer's snare. This is not a good mix with this drummer... though he says he'll be adding a metro-gnome to his laptop (he uses the laptop to get tempo for most of the songs we play live). I hope the flashing light will control his speed better than having two guitars, one bass, and vocals all way behind his tempo trying to slow him down.

Band #2 - Drummer seems to be speeding up, but listening to recordings of the last gig I realized that he had the kick about right on and the snare a little ahead... not counting the fills that sped him up that is. If I start to lock on the snare then he will speed up. This is another case where I will concentrate on the rhythm guitar and vocalist instead of the drummer. This drummer's fills/solos are all the same thing, and I find this guy to be very difficult to lock in with (especially if he has not been playing much recently).

Is it me? It is possible, but I don't think so; I'll let one particular drummer on this list that I've worked with a bit be the judge of that. All I can say is that the previous drummer in band #2 was an absolute joy to work with, great chemistry and very musical. And the previously mentioned list member drummer I've worked with is also excellent to work with, I don't feel exhausted at the end of a gig.

Total agreement on time being everyone's responsibility. We as musicians should be able to keep steady time and allow the vocals or a guitar solo to be more free and expressive without causing a train wreck.

Back to the original question - I've found that often times I'll do a "look and lock" with a drummer - at least the drummers who are aware enough of the other musicians on stage with them to notice when time is just a touch "off". Just a brief visual connection seems to get the rhythm section back in sync, and if the rhythm section is laying down a decent groove the band sounds great.

What do you do if the drummer is off in their own little world, fueled by RedBull and Yeager? Learn to hold the tempo, listen carefully to everyone on stage, be comfortable laying down beat, and make the vocalist/soloist look good. In my limited experience most of our audience sees and hears the vocals above everything else, and the lead vocalist is seen as the band leader. If you are not with your leader you make the band suck. If there are constant problems talk to your drummer and work out a solution. Usually this is a minor touch of the tiller conversation, not a major course change. And work with click tracks/drum machines/metronomes/what ever to keep your time skills up to par. Working with a bad drummer can destroy your confidence in your sense of time.

Good luck!

M.Wrenn · #17 07-18-2011, 10:34 AM

My drummer and I play extremely well together. We can make eye contact and know exactly where to place a hit, drop, stretch etc. And personally I think that comes from a long history of locking in with each other. It's totally two way street in terms of locking in and I think that builds the strongest rhythm sections.

dvh · #18 07-18-2011, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by makkE

Chemistry to me means that you relate to the other guy's way of playing - in such a way that you can sense where he's going or not, that you can feel what's going to happen next in splitseconds. I've had this with a couple of guys so far, mostly when I was on drums myself...

I think what people call "chemistry" is simply having a very similar approach to things, or in some cases, having matching musical influences/backrounds. I recently met a guy who played rythm guitar just as I do - I know I could have played to his stuff with eyes closed on drums or bass without thinking. Sort of like speaking the same language/dialect musically.

"Locking in with the drummer" - to me it doesn't only mean playing along with his right foot - this works great in some genres (and is sufficient), but not in all genres. To me, it's more about being able to sense the drummer's feel/groove and to fully "lock in" with it. Doesn't really matter if you hit the same beats all the time - more like having the same flow on things.

On the other hand, from my experiences in drumming, the drummer has to focus a lot on reacting to what he's given goove/feel-wise from guitarrists or bassists (or anyone else).
A good drummer is a good listener. If a drummer just bashes away on "his stuff", it's harder to click with him.

A big +1, esp. the bolded part...

Muttleybass · #19 07-18-2011, 10:42 AM

If the drummer is playing a straight ahead, set-in-stone beat, his concentration should be on his meter and it's up to the bassist to lock into his kick (find the pocket), most of the time (for the forum police, you can lock in OFF the beat too). When it comes to fills, pushes, et al, then you should be a team. They don't call it a "rhythm section" for nuttin'.

Either way, it's always about meter, and locking and grooving together as a team.

T-MOST · #20 07-18-2011, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by makkE

Chemistry to me means that you relate to the other guy's way of playing - in such a way that you can sense where he's going or not, that you can feel what's going to happen next in splitseconds. I've had this with a couple of guys so far, mostly when I was on drums myself...

I think what people call "chemistry" is simply having a very similar approach to things, or in some cases, having matching musical influences/backrounds. I recently met a guy who played rythm guitar just as I do - I know I could have played to his stuff with eyes closed on drums or bass without thinking. Sort of like speaking the same language/dialect musically.

"Locking in with the drummer" - to me it doesn't only mean playing along with his right foot - this works great in some genres (and is sufficient), but not in all genres. To me, it's more about being able to sense the drummer's feel/groove and to fully "lock in" with it. Doesn't really matter if you hit the same beats all the time - more like having the same flow on things.

On the other hand, from my experiences in drumming, the drummer has to focus a lot on reacting to what he's given goove/feel-wise from guitarrists or bassists (or anyone else).
A good drummer is a good listener. If a drummer just bashes away on "his stuff", it's harder to click with him.

+1

The drummer I'm working with currently doesn't listen to the big picture. He's much more interested in entertaining himself than performing well for the ensemble.