Economy of motion...overrated?

[JimmyM]

OK, that was an attention grabbing thread title. I have to say that I'm not totally against economy of motion. I use it all the time. I am, however, against it being the main goal of a lot of bassists. It seems to be the big catch phrase these days.

A lot of people will buy 6-string basses and claim that they only play them in order to reduce the amount of position shifts that they do, and claim economy of motion as the main goal. First off, how lazy do you have to be where you don't want to move your hand a couple inches? Second, how will you ever get really good at position shifts if your main reason for buying a certain bass is to avoid them? Sure, you can play over two octaves on a 6 without moving your hand, but shouldn't clean position shifting be a goal of the bassist? How will you ever get good at it if you keep your hand over the same four frets all night long?

Also, this business about ramps and barely touching your strings to maintain economy of motion is something else I consider highly overrated. I know you ramp users will line up to crucify me en masse, but I find it odd that people need to add something to their bass to keep them playing lightly. If you want to play lightly, just play lightly. I never have a problem digging in too hard when I want to play lightly, plus I have the advantage of being able to play extremely hard when I believe the music demands it. But the people with ramps installed don't have that option because they'll bottom out on the ramp. So you're forcing economy of motion upon yourself, and quite honestly, limiting your ability to do anything else but play lightly.

And don't even get me started on raking again!

Anyway, I'm sure I won't change anyone's perspective on it, but maybe I can give you a little something to consider. Economy of motion is a good thing, but it shouldn't be the entire goal of the bassist to where you limit your options.

[69nites]

position change can create unwanted string noise.

it's about playing cleanly

[cowsgomoo]

I don't buy all that 'I bought a 6 string to avoid position shifts' stuff (do people really say that?)... I dunno what basses these guys are buying but the same pitches on different strings sound radically different in timbre on each bass i've ever played... so the position you play in depends largely on the tone you want to achieve, not how easy it falls under the fingers...

unless you don't really care about timbre too much

economy of movement matters if you're playing 3 hour bar gigs... by the 3rd set you can forget about 1 finger per fret and all that stuff... with raw, blistered and tired hands, any way I can make the right sound with the minimum of effort, i'll do it

can't say string noise bothers me too much... I play in a band which has other instruments accompanying the bass... you don't hear string noise in amongst the sound of the ensemble... string noise is a major concern if you're playing unaccompanied in your bedroom maybe, but outside..no-one hears it

and even if they did... it shows that there's a human being playing a real musical instrument... no kittens will die as a result of 'bass string noise'

[JimmyM]

And who's to say position changes have to make noise? That's why you practice them...to do them cleaner. If you can't make a clean position change, that just tells me you don't practice it.

[69nites]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

And who's to say position changes have to make noise? That's why you practice them...to do them cleaner. If you can't make a clean position change, that just tells me you don't practice it.

if that was the case why don't you just play songs on one string?

get yourself a 24 fret 1 string bass and have at it.

[JimmyM]

That comment doesn't even warrant comment. Please don't waste my time with nonsense. I'm married.

[cowsgomoo]

Originally Posted by 69nites

if that was the case why don't you just play songs on one string?

get yourself a 24 fret 1 string bass and have at it.

because then he wouldn't be able to rake

[Tslicebass]

to be fair...
many players use ramps in order to maintain a consistent playing surface for the right hand. I may be wrong here but Gary Willis is probably the guy who is most responsible for the ramp trend and there videos of him playing on youtube with a jazz bass...no ramp...and still playing lightly. I agree with you that you dont need a ramp to play with a lighter touch. I was always more under the impression that most guys used ramps to have a consistent surface for the picking hand to pluck over. I think a lot of people of gone with the trend in this case, without maybe really properly understanding the practical reasons for having a ramp. That said, it does prevent you from being able to dig under the string...but i would argue that you can play equally hard on a ramped and non ramped bass.

[69nites]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

That comment doesn't even warrant comment. Please don't waste my time with nonsense. I'm married.

it's a valid point.

you'd have the whole first position hell you could play most classic rock with it.

if you can change positions so cleanly it shouldn't be a problem

it's an exaggeration but it's the same concept.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by 69nites

it's an exaggeration

Exactly.

So you're telling me that you should never move your hand to do a position shift? Why not buy a bass with 20 strings and four frets, then?

[69nites]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Exactly.

So you're telling me that you should never move your hand to do a position shift? Why not buy a bass with 20 strings and four frets, then?

because then you couldn't efficiently reach the strings.

I can reach all the strings on a 5 or 6 string bass with absolutely no discomfort or effect on my sound (other than a difference in string to string tone)

[T. B. Player]

Unless you haven't heard any of the wonderful solo things that can be done with a 6 string bass, don't:

1) knock it until you've tried it,
2) give anyone crap about playing bass the way they want to play bass, and
3) say that all you need to play bass is four strings, because "that's the way Jaco did it."

My response to #3 is, if you're going to bring Jaco into it, and you're playing a four string with frets, you've got a hell of a lot to learn yet.

Economy of motion is one thing, but so is timbre. Additionally, I can do things on my 6 string that I can't do on a four. Check out the "myspace" link in the signature - there are only two tunes there, but neither can be effectively done on a 4 string, but can be done with some greater difficulty on a 5 string. Nothing wrong with it, that's just the way the pieces are.

Personally, after playing bass for 35 years, it's nice to give my left hand a rest once in a while. You younger players can have the four strings (and I still have my vintage original MusicMan Sting Ray 4 string fretless in the closet so I can play Portrait of Tracy whenever I feel the urge to do so). Wait until you're in your 50's and see what pains happen to be found in your left shoulder, arm and hand.

Z

[funkydanbass]

Was this thread started so you could have a go at anyone that posted there after?
I play 4 5 and 6 string basses, I have a bass with a ramp and 2 basses without. I assure you that none of these instruments were purchased to reduce position shifts, nor was the ramp included to only play lightly.

Believe it or not, but most people use extra stinged instruments for the added range. Most people use a ramp because they like to maintain the feeling of the pickups under the fingers along the full length of the plucking position. I certainly don't feel limited dynamically by the ramp on my bass.

Position shifting is just as important as economy of motion, (as well as muting, for all those noisy postion changes). If your not working on both then your missing out. Simple as that.

[Lalabadie]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Exactly.

So you're telling me that you should never move your hand to do a position shift? Why not buy a bass with 20 strings and four frets, then?

I'm considering attaching 19 additional fingers to my hand so I only have two hand positions.

I still gotta try a 6-string before I really emit an opinion on the matter. I see them more as solo instruments, and because of this I'd like to see an EADGCF (contra-tenor?)

[JimK]

To me, 'economy of motion' was not about position shifts...someone mentioned "timbre" & that's important, IMO. Sometimes a certain consistency is desired (i.e. a figure may be played on, say, only the "A" & "D" strings vs. playing the same figure across the "A", "D", & "G" strings).
Way back in the early daze of TB, someone once asked why their TAB of "Badge" had Bruce playing the "E" note on the "A" string rather than using the "E" on the "D" string...

'Economy of motion', to me, is about keeping the fretting fingers on the strings/neck. Plucking fingers, too, are not flailing away.

[alfredpunkjazz]

Economy of motion for me, and the reason why I tell this to anyone who has has a lesson with me, it's just to prevent issues with bad technique (I mean, painfull issues). Any instrument has this stuff to be learned. I think it's better to approach this topic from another point of view, when you play an instrument, if you only worry about the sound you're producing, then you're forgetting a lot of stuff.

Plus, modern contemporary techniques requiere an extreme control over your body, but this hasn't actually been played on electric bass (I mean, academic contemporary music), but here we're are trying to make it sound...

[SteveC]

I don't know about other issues, but as for shifting/playing in different positions, an A played on the 12th fret of the A string and an A played on the 6th fret of the D string - while the same pitch - sound very different. Sometimes you want that.

You can still do that on a 6 string if you want.

Not defending anyone, but again - if people want to play a 6, who cares what they say their reason is?

I wish I could, I've tried, but a 5 seems to be all I need and feel comfortable on so that's what I play. Maybe I'll try a 6 again someday.

JimmyK, considering that you, at least as of last I knew, practice Carol Kaye's picking technique using an artificial dampener device, which theoretically is economic, yet limiting, why would you criticize people who use sixers, ramps, and raking for the same reason you use Carol Kaye's techniques?

[alfredpunkjazz]

Originally Posted by SteveC

I don't know about other issues, but as for shifting/playing in different positions, an A played on the 12th fret of the A string and an A played on the 6th fret of the D string - while the same pitch - sound very different. Sometimes you want that.

Actually, I have spent more time looking to explote those little differences in the bass than doing flashy stuff, because details like those (the fact that you have, on a 4 string bass, 4 different colours of many notes) gives you a lot of stuff to work with.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Tired_Thumb

JimmyK, considering that you, at least as of last I knew, practice Carol Kaye's picking technique using an artificial dampener device, which theoretically is economic, yet limiting, why would you criticize people who use sixers, ramps, and raking for the same reason you use Carol Kaye's techniques?

Again, you totally missed what I said. I didn't say economy of motion is bad. I said it shouldn't be the be-all and end-all of bass technique like so many people try to make it on here.

Second, economy of motion has zip to do with why I use Carol's picking technique. I use it because my hand hurts tremendously if I don't. And I don't use a dampener, either.

Third, it's JimmyM