fast low B playing sucks!

Colonel_Claypoo · #1 06-08-2009, 10:48 AM

hey guys.

i'm kinda lost here.
for the most part my band's songs (see my sig) involve playing on the low B string which is detuned a whole step to A.

now, whenever i play fast parts, the sound becomes indistinguishable and the extend to which the low B string vibrates makes for a very uneven sound. huge attack which doesn't sound good. furthermore i think fret clank sounds horrible on the low B string. all the other strings sind fine like it.
unfortunately there's no chance to play fast on a low B string without fret clank.

so i need your help.
have you figured out a way to make it work?

thanks

Gasman · #2 06-08-2009, 10:51 AM

You need a thicker gauge string to get more tension and less floppiness. However, playing on a low A will just sound somewhat muddy no matter what you do. Can't cheat physics and the human ear.

prokfrog · #3 06-08-2009, 10:54 AM

What is your scale length?

jtb · #4 06-08-2009, 10:57 AM

A 35-inch scale bass would also help the string tension but even then you'll still struggle with a detuned B.

Ubersheist · #5 06-08-2009, 10:58 AM

The other thing you can do is if you're playing with a pick, use the meaty part of your palm to mute the string a bit. This won't really change the overall volume, but reign in the string a bit. Position it a couple of inches away from the bridge and get your palm firmly placed on the string before you pick. It may not work with your style or song, but it's just a thought.

Dogbertday · #6 06-08-2009, 11:01 AM

+1 to palm muting... also try you lines an octave up... I know you want that reallt deep sound but it's worth a shot for the fast parts as it will sound clearer and your lows will sound even lower by comparison

nvd · #7 06-08-2009, 11:05 AM

+1 to moving the riffs an octave up, if you still need that lowness, stomp on an octave pedal.

Ric5 · #8 06-08-2009, 11:17 AM

I find that the low B when detuned below a B flat tends to sound bad.

But you can try cutting the bass and turning up the mids to get more definition on the B string.

Also a 35" scale and a fatter B string will help.

7StringBassist · #9 06-08-2009, 11:29 AM

I use a 34" scale conklin and a .130 low B nothing wrong when i drop to A

could be that you need a new set of strings as well

or bump the mids a bit

dnarock · #10 06-08-2009, 11:34 AM

I have a 34in 5string and a 35 in 5 and they both run at least 130. for the b . My 35in schecter has a 135 on it at the moment and when i DeTune that one to A it sounds better still not very good but better

Colonel_Claypoo · #11 06-08-2009, 02:29 PM

thanks for your input so far guys.

today i was experimenting with playing the fast parts an octave up an lay down the groove with the low A.
sounds ok but everytime i get away from the low A i can really hear that the sound is not as heavy and huge as when i'm playing longer notes (not faster) on the low A.
since i've been fighting for a low end cut for the guitars, it's a big accomplishment i'm partly giving up here.
maybe i should try to look into ocavers.
i don't have much experience with them but my thinking is that they sound more like a synth bass, artifical without lots of harmonics. is that true?

JackANSI · #12 06-08-2009, 02:33 PM

I'd play the notes on the actual A string and use an octave pedal to go down to pick up the balls. No worries about harmonics because you're providing them on the higher string.

newbold · #13 06-08-2009, 02:35 PM

You may want to try scooping the low mids/upper bass. You can then boost lower bass frequencies that would otherwise compete.

Alun · #14 06-08-2009, 02:39 PM

Try picking nearer the bridge where the tension is higher, this can make a big difference. In addition try a heavier gauge and/or raise the action a bit and/or play with a lighter touch.

Failing all that, if you do decide to go for an octaver - make sure you try it first as a lot won't track too well under the D on the 5th fret of the regular A string. A MicroPOG or POG is a good choice for tracking lower than that.

Cheers
Alun

Colonel_Claypoo · #15 06-08-2009, 03:26 PM

thanks.

i just had a quick look at some octaver clips on youtube, especially the new MXR 288.
however, i must admit that i don't thing that the sound octavers provide would suit my band's sound at all.
it sounds like there's a small latency between the actual note and the octave down or maybe it's just the way it sounds.
i like the low B string to be dry sounding and i'm already playing as far back on the bridge as possible and i quite like it.
34" scale might not be the best for it though. looking into fanned frets right now and i guess i'll just have to keep working on a lighter touch

phxlbrmpf · #16 06-08-2009, 03:57 PM

I agree that for metal-ish music, trying to use an octaver as a substitute for detuning never sounds quite right. Besides, finding a wet (octave)/clean ratio that sounds good can be tricky and can vary depending on the song/amp settings/room/moon phase. I'd definitely try a lighter touch, I've become pretty used to the fact that if I dig in too much on the B string, things can get ugly. If that doesn't work, consider biting the bullet and try simplyfing the ultra fast parts, i. e. playing 8th notes instead of 16th notes. It's pretty probable that it'll sound like you're playing faster than you really are in the mix. Lots of metal bassists do this, actually.

Personally, I use a 1.35 B string and anything lighter doesn't really feel right to me. I also sometimes detune to A and it still sounds pretty tight.

Ubersheist · #17 06-08-2009, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colonel_Claypoo

thanks.

i just had a quick look at some octaver clips on youtube, especially the new MXR 288.
however, i must admit that i don't thing that the sound octavers provide would suit my band's sound at all.
it sounds like there's a small latency between the actual note and the octave down or maybe it's just the way it sounds.
i like the low B string to be dry sounding and i'm already playing as far back on the bridge as possible and i quite like it.
34" scale might not be the best for it though. looking into fanned frets right now and i guess i'll just have to keep working on a lighter touch

Keep in mind that most octavators have a slight lag time on that low end, and possibly on the "dry" channel without a true bypass, too.

My understanding is that the MXR 288 does have true bypass, and may be a good option for you.

Others, like the Digitech octave pedal, and Boss synth pedal have enough delay that they bug me. For fast stuff, they may be unusable. Watch out and be wary of digital octavators. They have a bit more lag time.

Look for a true bypass system, and really listen to see how quick the tracking is. Otherwise, it won't help at all.

Aside from that, there's probably a fundamental problem as others have mentioned - too light of a gauge of string, or EQing that muddies things up instead of helping. Also, try to see how the guitar tones are interferring. Those guitars are tuned below a baritone guitar, and probably aren't built as such. They probably are playing with standard size guitars with 22" or maybe 25" scales, where the scale that they should be using for that tuning is more like 27" to 30" or so - the baritone guitar scale length. Too short of a scale can make the sound muddy and indistinct from the guitars.

Many guitarists really pump up the lows without realizing how muddy they can make everything in the band sound, so try to pick out where your problem's coming from - it may not really be from you.

Deacon_Blues · #18 06-09-2009, 10:38 AM

The words "fret clank" caught my attention here the most. Why do you get that? Is it a bass issue or a playing technique issue?

If it's a bass issue - keep in mind that tuning down a whole step lowers the stress on the neck a lot, which makes the neck more straight. You may want to loosen the truss rod to add a slight relief/curvature to the neck. Another option, perhaps the preferable one sound-wise, is to put on some heavier strings to increase the tension and keep the relief as it should be.

If it's a playing technique issue - check out that you're not plucking too aggressively. Try making smaller and more focused finger movements without sacrificing intensity and volume. It should be doable - The first years I played bass, I used to almost hammer my fingers on the strings, but some technique lessons got me to change it, and I got a much better sound coming out of my bass now when my technique's better. I also got more speed and don't get tired as quickly. It's worth to check this out, especially if you haven't played too long or haven't had any lessons.

I suggest that you don't try effects or other basses before you've sorted out what your real problem is.

nysbob · #19 06-09-2009, 01:45 PM

The plain fact of the matter is, very low notes don't sound good played very fast. It's physics - the string is vibrating more slowly, and your amp is working exponentially harder to reproduce it...not to mention the fact that most places you play will have reverberations and standing waves to add to the fun.

You can fight it with a higher tension string or whatever, but the reality will remain.

MistaMarko · #20 06-09-2009, 03:27 PM

We have a song off of my band's album entitled "The Beginning" -- I play in Drop A the entire time. One part toward the end, I play straight 16ths at 170, and it just sounds toneless.

So, to remedy this, I played MUCH lighter, kicked back on the aggressiveness and relaxed.

Sounds better to an extent, but I can't agree more with "can't cheat physics and the human ear" --

Mark