Fingers Fretting Hand

[Dickie_uk]

Hi,
I was curious as if anyone has the same experience.

On my fretting hand my 3rd (ring finger) is my weak finger. I've tried working it but it will always be weaker than the other three.

Just wondering if anyone else has weaker finger?

[tnickk]

gonna have to practice scales. The only thing I know that helps.

[tZer]

I've been playing for more than a quarter century - one finger per fret - and my technique is solid (if I do say so myself).

My ring finger (3rd finger) on my fretting hand is still 'weaker' by comparison to my index and middle finger, but is equal to my little finger in strength and dexterity.

I am not a doctor but I think that the outer fingers on your hand are always going to be comparably weaker than your thumb, index and middle fingers and you'd be doing yourself a disservice trying to make them 'as strong as' the first three.

That said, you don't need massive strength in ANY of your fingers to properly fret notes on an electric bass guitar that's set up properly. You only need adequate strength - and again, that's not a lot. If your technique includes fretting hard and you are trying to make your weaker fingers fret as hard as your stronger ones, you are doing it backwards.

In order to have solid fretting technique, you should have your bass setup properly so that you don't need to exert a lot of strength to fret a note and you should practice a light touch.

Upright is a totally different story - but for electric bass it's a mistake to believe that you need to have 'strong' fingers. You just need 'strong enough' fingers - and that's not terribly strong. Stamina and dexterity come with time and practice of good technique.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by tnickk

gonna have to practice scales. The only thing I know that helps.

It is not "weak" as such, it has restricted movement. Use it more and it will get better. There are a number of ways to exercise the hands and fingers. Finger spreads, curls and lifts are a great way to exercise the hands and fingers, along with stretches and warm ups this is a great way to condition and tone hands.

Try this one for starters;

Palm facing you and fingers straight, curl down towards the palm the forefinger only, keep the other fingers straight. If any other finger follows, let it, never restrict the fingers. Say for example when doing the forefinger curl, the middle finger follows.....then let it. When the forefinger has done its curl, hold it there and then return the following finger back straight, then return back the forefinger to straight.
Repeat this action across all the fingers.

You will find it quite hard to start with but it will get easier as the fingers tone to the use. You will find that not all of the joints in the fingers will curl, but they will in the end. Don't worry about all the joints being able to curl at firstsome will be more flexable than others, but better and more use will help them work in line again. Now when you move this to practice on the bass you will find the fingers are more receptive to what you want to do and of course the practice will help meld the two hands to play as one.....the exercises are great for both hands.

[tZer]

+1 to fergie.

Most importantly, DO NOT BUY IN TO THE HYPE about 'finger strength'. You can end up doing more harm than good trying to build strength.

Again - your fingers should stay close to the strings and you should not have to exert a lot of strength to properly fret notes. If you find yourself doing 'strength building' exercises in the same way you might build arm or leg strength - by pushing your muscles limits - you are focusing on the wrong aspect of your technique.

You need limber, nimble fingers that only need to press hard enough to fret a note clearly. Do some searches on fretting technique and focus on the ones that advocate a light touch. While it's true in the heat of battle you will end up fretting harder than you need to due to the energy of playing live - when you practice you should practice a good, light, muscularly correct technique to ensure you don't do harm to your self. This will serve you much better in the long run than will trying to "build strength".

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by tZer

+1 to fergie.

Most importantly, DO NOT BUY IN TO THE HYPE about 'finger strength'. You can end up doing more harm than good trying to build strength.

There is a lot of myth about "finger strength". Strength covers a lot of ground, strength is a collective term for power, stamina, dexterity, resilience, resistance, health etc..

So yes a hand and fingers need strength. The argument always put up is that it takes not strength to fret a note, but that is not strictly true. if you are to fret one note only then yes it is true, but if you want to play with a free fluent style time song after song, night after night, week after week, month after month, year after year, for life then you need strength. You need a blend of stamina, dexterity and power in the hands and fingers, not just one but a blend of those three. This will bring in other attributes as you develop such as resilience, resistance, tone, health etc.

What you do not need is one to dominate, such as power.
Exercises and devices to increase power under the guise of hand strength will defeat the ability to build and develop stamina and dexterity. And of course any focus on one of those three attributes of stamina, dexterity, and power will defeat the others.

Under normal playing uses playing bass with a set of healthy hands will bring desired results. Where the problems occur is when hands are not healthy and the other daily uses of the hands cone into play. Playing bass is a hand use, it is a task they can handle, but a task the hands were never designed to do through evolution. In the last 25 years we have seen a rise in the amount of hand use due to modern life. From remote controls, to games to keyboards out hands have seen there use more than treble. Its use is so increased that a child of 12 will have used its hands at least three times more than a child of 12 twenty five years ago. So that means three times the potential wear and tear in hands that have not yet been fully developed to show in later life.

Of course this is just a case scenario of what modern life can do, not what it will do. But for some it will be a reality, and a reality they will deal with sooner rather than later in life.
This is why it is such a minefield to be involved in when trying to offer advice, Without a concice history of the hands, their use, illness, injury, it is almost impossible to say that what is good for one is good for another, and so in lies a lot of the myths rather than the facts.
The psychology of players see them justify a lot of bad things for them under the belief that because their "hero" done this then they can and should too. With over strenuous practicing regimes, set ups and instruments nor suitable for them, they can find justification in "no pain no gain".
But pain is a body signal to stop what you are doing, the presence of pain is a warning that something will cause damage if it is not adressed. That means stop what is causing it, or remove the painfull area from the cause.
Over use and/or mis-use are the biggest cause of repeditive strain injuries......LOL the clue is even in the name what is going on.

As usual i am open to questions that any of the points i have raised may offer.

[tZer]

No argument here.

What I frequently hear from all types of beginner guitar players are stories about using things like grip strengtheners that you squeeze - and other devices designed to build finger strength - leading some to believe that you can improve your ability to fret independent of actually playing the instrument.

As you and I are saying, the ability to play well and injury free for the long haul requires that you develop a fingering/fretting technique that nurtures dexterity and stamina without imposing undue stress on the small muscles and tendons of the forearm, wrist, hand and fingers.

If a young player buys into some of the more ridiculous "get strong fast" gimmicks - like walking around all day gripping a grip strengthener or squishing some spring-loaded finger exerciser - what they will develop is the ability to grip things and squeeze things harder - which is counter to what you want to do when fingering/fretting a bass.

I don't know how many young kids I've seen playing bass in their early years literally crushing the strings into the fingerboard, and gripping the neck as if they were trying to strangle an anaconda. When you acquaint them with how little force is actually required they have a very hard time "letting go" of the idea that you have to have "strong" fingers.

While it's true that your finger strength will increase as a result of practicing proper technique, that's only 1/3 of the goal and I would argue the least important - but seems to be the only thing a lot of people focus on - which leads many to buy into the BS and buy silly 'get strong fast' BS devices - then go about a "strength training" regimen like preparing for an MMA battle.

So I guess my point is when someone asks about 'strength' it can be a clear indication that they are already misunderstanding proper technique and even though strength is a part of the equation, it's more important to focus on 'light and proper touch' - which can actually appear to be the exact opposite of 'strength training' - even though it ultimately leads to having more dexterity, stamina and strength.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by tZer

No argument here.

What I frequently hear from all types of beginner guitar players are stories about using things like grip strengtheners that you squeeze - and other devices designed to build finger strength - leading some to believe that you can improve your ability to fret independent of actually playing the instrument.

As you and I are saying, the ability to play well and injury free for the long haul requires that you develop a fingering/fretting technique that nurtures dexterity and stamina without imposing undue stress on the small muscles and tendons of the forearm, wrist, hand and fingers.

If a young player buys into some of the more ridiculous "get strong fast" gimmicks - like walking around all day gripping a grip strengthener or squishing some spring-loaded finger exerciser - what they will develop is the ability to grip things and squeeze things harder - which is counter to what you want to do when fingering/fretting a bass.

I don't know how many young kids I've seen playing bass in their early years literally crushing the strings into the fingerboard, and gripping the neck as if they were trying to strangle an anaconda. When you acquaint them with how little force is actually required they have a very hard time "letting go" of the idea that you have to have "strong" fingers.

While it's true that your finger strength will increase as a result of practicing proper technique, that's only 1/3 of the goal and I would argue the least important - but seems to be the only thing a lot of people focus on - which leads many to buy into the BS and buy silly 'get strong fast' BS devices - then go about a "strength training" regimen like preparing for an MMA battle.

So I guess my point is when someone asks about 'strength' it can be a clear indication that they are already misunderstanding proper technique and even though strength is a part of the equation, it's more important to focus on 'light and proper touch' - which can actually appear to be the exact opposite of 'strength training' - even though it ultimately leads to having more dexterity, stamina and strength.

+1 so true that is is the ability to lift off that need to be develped, not the ability to push down...that can soon become a grip. What i teach, write and talk about is a lively sensation in the hands and fingers when playing.

I have what can be described as a lively sense on bounce in my fingers, my fingers bounce across the strings freting notes. I control the bounce with my technique by being lively in the hands. Think of it like a drummer with a drum stick controling the bounce, hold it tight and the bounce is once from a single strike, but hold it loose and lively and the bounces are many from a single strike.
Even if i have to play say 16 bars on a low G my fingers are still bouncing. They are in a constant state of contraction between tension and relaxation on the string and the note being fretted, but the relaxation part is never enough to interupt the note.
So in effect i am applying a bit more pressure that required and releasing it to the correct amount, and then applying more again, then releasing it etc etc. So this bouncing in my fingers is the whole unit being in a constant state of readiness for what is to come.
Ever notice a tennis player waiting to receive a serve, a goal keeper before a penalty, a golfer with a forward press before a swing etc.

Motion becomes motion, movement from a static position will not be fluent where muscle use is concerned. By keeping the muscles "oiled" even when playing that 16 bars of low G is ensuring that they are primed and ready to move fast and fluent if and when required. That is the "bouncing" feeling i have and it is that feeling that ensures my fingers are always primed to move...even when they do not have to.

Grip pressure is an un-seen force that will always destroy any good intentions in a technique because a player will usually not be aware of it.

[Tupac]

Originally Posted by tZer

+1 to fergie.

Most importantly, DO NOT BUY IN TO THE HYPE about 'finger strength'. You can end up doing more harm than good trying to build strength.

Truth. Your fingers are as strong as they ever will be. The idea of finger strength is just a myth conjured by people who couldn't grasp fretting technique.

[Dickie_uk]

Hi,
I started this thread but can't add anything to it I'm afraid. I read through all the replies and there is so much good advice from a lot of 'Wise Heads'.
I injured my ring finger many years ago so it'll never be that strong. I'm trying to learn more about playing 'musically' if that makes sense. And using may 'head' as much as my hands.

[Newfirstbass]

Hmmm!
I have a bit missing from mine! Lost it in a door frame-its part of the reason I have come to the bass from the guitar, I can stand the pain from the bass strings and hold a clean note, on the guitar, the thinner strings would hurt like crazy and often I could not manage a whole song.
Now I can play a whole gig on the bass, and also play the drums, something I have done for years and years in local bands, that weak finger held me up even with that for a while due to having to change grip!
Keep at it and build strength with a rubber ball- squeeze the hell out of it while you watch tv or rest, it will work.

[Matthew_84]

Hey all,

This is going to be a bit of a thread hijack... Sorry... But some of the posts I am reading are getting my mind racing about other things I'm working on and thought I might as well put it here.

Right now, I'm working on how to keep my fretting fingers close to the strings and also to release the note while keeping a finger on the string to dampen it as I play another note on another string.

Part of my practice sessions have included a technique I've read about a couple of times on here in different posts: to have all four fingers on one string and then after playing a note, release the note with the pinky, just enough to mute it but still keep contact, and then move it to a fret a perfect 4th above (or below), then play a note on the original string (the one fretted by the index, middle, and ring finger) and then release the ring and move it to the same string as the pinky. And I'll do this exercise moving up and down the strings, and soon I'll start skipping strings.

My query though is that in order for me to do this well, I put some kind of mean kung-fu grip on the neck. I try to play relaxed but it just can't happen. It seems to be because all four fingers are pressing against the board that the neck wants to move out of control unless I secure the thumb against it, creating equal pressure from both sides and a pretty mean grip. So is there anyway to do this exercise without such a grip? I have only started applying it. Will it get more relaxed as I work on it?

Thanks

* ONe thing worth mentioning is that I've also changed my right hand technique and am playing with a floating thumb tenchnique but no other part of my right hand (wrist included) is touching the bass, which is certainly helping to the instability. But my new right hand technique works better with the wrist off the bass to keep the wrist traight as well as consistancy from string to string. The bass is very stable when I play normally, it's just when I start fretting four notes at once that it starts getting a little out of hand.

[Mayers]

Originally Posted by Matthew_84

Hey all,

This is going to be a bit of a thread hijack... Sorry... But some of the posts I am reading are getting my mind racing about other things I'm working on and thought I might as well put it here.

Right now, I'm working on how to keep my fretting fingers close to the strings and also to release the note while keeping a finger on the string to dampen it as I play another note on another string.

Part of my practice sessions have included a technique I've read about a couple of times on here in different posts: to have all four fingers on one string and then after playing a note, release the note with the pinky, just enough to mute it but still keep contact, and then move it to a fret a perfect 4th above (or below), then play a note on the original string (the one fretted by the index, middle, and ring finger) and then release the ring and move it to the same string as the pinky. And I'll do this exercise moving up and down the strings, and soon I'll start skipping strings.

My query though is that in order for me to do this well, I put some kind of mean kung-fu grip on the neck. I try to play relaxed but it just can't happen. It seems to be because all four fingers are pressing against the board that the neck wants to move out of control unless I secure the thumb against it, creating equal pressure from both sides and a pretty mean grip. So is there anyway to do this exercise without such a grip? I have only started applying it. Will it get more relaxed as I work on it?

Thanks

* ONe thing worth mentioning is that I've also changed my right hand technique and am playing with a floating thumb tenchnique but no other part of my right hand (wrist included) is touching the bass, which is certainly helping to the instability. But my new right hand technique works better with the wrist off the bass to keep the wrist traight as well as consistancy from string to string. The bass is very stable when I play normally, it's just when I start fretting four notes at once that it starts getting a little out of hand.

A little theory course : let say you play a C note, a perfect 4th above is F but if you go from F to C below you play a perfect 5th not a perfect 4th.

Putting all your finger on one string is good to develop dexterity and finger independence but I don't see myself playing like that, just too slow. You will see that kind of technic on double bass were the strings are much much harder to press down.

For the floating thumb, try a classical guitar position, your bass should stay in one position without you holding it. Also with a floating thumb you don't need to use your left hand to mute strings, your floating thumb already does that. At one point your fretting hand should become faster because you remove the job of muting and give it to the plucking hand.

[tZer]

RE: Kung Fu Grip - is your bass setup properly? If not, that could be the problem. If so, then I think you are just gripping it too hard. I know that if the instrument is set up properly, you don't need a lot of pressure at all to create a solid note.

My teacher had a method of 'calibrating' finger pressure. Fret a note then slowly lighten the pressure. When the note just starts buzzing stop. Fret all notes with that level of pressure - just light enough to make the note sound, but not clearly. Then press just enough to bring that note back to clarity - THAT'S how much pressure you need to use. any more is overkill.

Originally Posted by Mayers

Putting all your finger on one string is good to develop dexterity and finger independence but I don't see myself playing like that, just too slow.

Practice and how you play are two different worlds. In practice you do things that you'd never really do when you play because some of the methods used in practice are designed to do things slowly and methodically in order to promote improvement in mechanics. People who study martial arts will practice standing in positions they'd never use in sparring or in an actual confrontation because in practice you have the luxury of not being in the heat of battle and can do things that improve your technique - things that you could never do if you always practiced as if you were in battle.

Practicing the way Mathew_84 described will improve his touch when he plays. He may not actually play using that exact technique live, but if he practices it that way, it'd much more likely that the benefits from doing so will show up in his live performances.

[Matthew_84]

Yes, this is only a technique I use during practicing to increase my finger dexterity. As for muting with the right hand, I use the thumb to mute the lower strings, but when I'm on the G string and move down to the D, I need my left hand to mute the G string. That's why I'm working on the technique.

And yes, you're right about the perfect 5th going down a string... My bad.

Regarding the grip, the bass is setup proiperly, and my grip is fine when playing normally. I can take my thumb off of the back of the neck and have no issues at all, everything remains the same. It is only when I fret four fingers at once that I put more pressure on the fingerboard and need to counter that with equal pressure on the thumb. Maybe I'll work on figuring out the lightest amount of pressure I need from the thuimb to keep the neck still. Thanks

[sammyp]

my experience is strange is this regard ....bass has helped me regain strength in my pinky i had let go on the guitar .....thru the late 90's and 2000s i began to play more guitar using 3 fingers and less pinky on a lot of blues scale stuff ...sort of the clapton/ van halen thing ....then i releazed my pinky was kind of "retarted" for lack of a better term ...it wouldn't do simple scalar type things it used during my first 1o years of playing .....sinse my hands are small and i HAVE to use my pinky on bass much of that has corrected itself ....

as someone else said ....scales and exercises properly fingered will do the trick!

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by Matthew_84

Hey all,

This is going to be a bit of a thread hijack... Sorry... But some of the posts I am reading are getting my mind racing about other things I'm working on and thought I might as well put it here.

Right now, I'm working on how to keep my fretting fingers close to the strings and also to release the note while keeping a finger on the string to dampen it as I play another note on another string.

Here is a contact exercise i devised to help the whole hand be aware of pressure during movement.

The idea is all finger have contact and you only move the desired fingers to allow you to play a major scale. The thing is that you move and fret notes, but not neccesarly play them, the string you have moved to is just to get the finger out the way and allow the note behind to be fretted. This exercise as well as keeping the fingers on, will stretch fingers, test grip pressure, and increase co-ordination and dexterity.

I do it starting on the G on an A string at the 10th fret but you can pick the area of the neck that is comportable for you. The exercise once learned will moved to more demanding positions later.

So the fretting hand, you start with an G major 7 shape spread over three strings ( the A-D-G strings) , the notes are G -B-F# and then the tonic G added,( in front of the F#). This will give the little finger support on the G string.

Then using the one finger one fret method you play a G major scale keeping all fingers down and on as you play. Obviously you lift fingers to change notes when required. Give each note a count of four, this will become obvious later, but all four fingers are always in contact with the strings after each new note is played. The fingers are named because it is important that you follow their order. Once learned and played up the scale, play it back down again ( reverse the order of fretting). so to start with the fingers are fretting the G-B-F#-G to start with.


G- so you can play the first note G as the middle finger is on it.
A- bring down the little finger and play the A.
B- play the B as the forefinger is already there on it as part of the chord shape.
C- now lift and use the forefinger to play the C.
D- now lift and play the D with the little finger.
E- now lift and change the position of the fore and ring fingers simultaneously, the forefinger goes to the E and stays on, and the ring finger goes back to G#. (To achieve this change the fingers must pivot around the middle finger.)
F#- now the ring finger plays the F#.
G- and now the little finger plays the G.

This exercise takes time that is why each note is a count of 4.
The fretting hands finger move but it is not always the note you hold down you pluck, (as in playing the B and the E) so fretting fingers move but your plucking fingers do not always follow them.....it is all about dexterity and stamina, not speed.
The holding down action of the fingers is similar to chord playing. If the pressure is to much you will not know what finger to lift, it will be like they are stuck, you can see it but your brain can't work it out.
After doing it for a while it all becomes easy as you fingers and brain start to work together and the correct grip pressure is used. The instinct is to tighten when you play this( thats why the count of 4 is important, it makes your encourages you to tighten so that feeling of what finger is doing what is lost, but this is a grip pressure issue), and that will restrict you and make the exercise harder, so you have to relax the fingers and the grip to do it.

Guitar players do this all the time in their chord playing and bass players do it as well. This exercise is just based on those principals. It is good for stretches, dexterity and stamina.

Practice it first to "see" and feel the shapes then add the plucking hand. Remember to stretch and warm up for this and do not over do it. It will be tiring to a hand not used to it, but i'm sure you know your limits.

Have fun with it and when you can do it easy move it down a fret and start again. You can keep moving it down a fret till you reach your limit. As the frets get wider so the exercise will become harder and more challenging.

[Matthew_84]

Wow Fergie, another great post... Really, I must give you a huge thanks for all of the help you've given me. You've helped my technique tenfold. Thanks.

I am looking forward to trying this later but reading through it I got confused about the E step. You wrote G#, did you mean F#? Sorry that's the part that's throwing me off.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by Matthew_84

Wow Fergie, another great post... Really, I must give you a huge thanks for all of the help you've given me. You've helped my technique tenfold. Thanks.

I am looking forward to trying this later but reading through it I got confused about the E step. You wrote G#, did you mean F#? Sorry that's the part that's throwing me off.

No it is G#. The fore finger and ring finger lift and change for that step, so the middle finger stays on, and the fore and ring finger change positions. But you have to follow the fore finger to the E,( that on the G string, 9th fret), not the ring finger to the G# ( that is the G# on the A string, 11th fret ) Remember it is one finger on fret so each finger can only work the notes on that location. If the F# was used then the E would be blocked off.

So on G it is,
fore finger all notes at 9th fret
middle finger all notes at 10th fret
ring finger all notes at 11th fret
little finger all notes at 12th fret

So all notes will be found in this 4 fret area over any three strings, in this example it is G major 7 based ( only because the ring finger is on the F#, but it is blocked off by the little finger on the G, lift of the little finger and you will have G major 7 ( minus the 5th).

I hope this clears up the issue?

[Matthew_84]

Okay, finally got it. I kept reading it and saying to myself, "but a G# is not part of this scale, why am I going there?". It wasn't until I had my bass in hand that I could see I had to move the ring finger somewhere.

Great exercise Fergie. I'm sure this will help. Thanks again.