Fingers straight out or curled middle joint??

[NickCormier]

I been playing bass for only a year now, altho I have a music arts diploma in guitar so I am quite familar with everything other than bass technique.

I am self taught on bass technique, so im sure its pretty bad. but I forced myself into "floating thumb" and 3-finger R-M-I-R which are both finally coming solid.

One thing I notice when watching some videos though, is that some people play specifically with all their fingers curled at the middle joint, almost as if they were holding on to chin-up bar.. and just do like a "come here" motion to pluck the strings..

What i've been doing, is a very slight bend at the middle joint, but my finger is pretty much straight. Quite different!

Is having your fingers curled at the middle joint much more efficient? I can see how it would be more useful for speed stuff, and it actually looks like it could have a bit more control (less string noise from your straight fingers being so far out).. but it will take me probably afew months to rework my wholleeeeee style..

edit: heres some pictures I found online to maybe try and explain it a bit better..

Here is what I currently look like, my finger is pretty much straight with a slight curl.


Here is what I mean by having your middle joint curled, and your hand pretty much stays like that while playing:
Couldnt find any pictures, so look at this video of some random guy I found on youtube;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbOZRgbq-e0

See how his fingers are almost always curled (except for when doing octaves) but all his single string notes are all super tight curled finger position, not straight like mine and the picture above.

Or like how Billy Sheehan plays normally.. his fingers are always tightly curled (when not slapping).. Hard to find a picture of but you get the idea.


WATCH THIS VIDEO AT 2:45 where he explains my dilemma PERFECTLY.. I do the first thing he shows.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okBPsjjvAz0

Any opinions?

[VinceS]

If you relax your hand, you fingers should naturally bend/curl. For me, having some curl in my fingers is more efficient than (trying harder) to keep them straight.

[Fergie Fulton]

I'll give you a fact...the finger need to have some curl in them.
Finger joints are only held together by soft tissue, remove the soft tissue and they will fall apart, in other words they do not lock together, they fit together. Without to much detail on anatomy but pointing out the main points, tension has to run through the joints not over them. When the fingers are straight tensions run over them, not through them.

Easiest way to visualise/demonstrate this is to think of a spring.
If you compress it straight it will carry the tension, if you try and compress it off centre or let the middle "belly out" it will pop out of shape because the tension is not going through it, but over it, and over on side in particular. Take a small spring out of a pen and try it.
Your fingers are like that, by using the curl in your fingers you pass forces and tensions through the joints allowing the soft tissue of muscle, ligament, etc to do there job.

There are numerous problems that occur in many fields of life when this principal is ignored, some times it is minor,(stiff joints, sore hands) some times it is major ( sagittal band rupture). The hand has a natural curl so use it within any left or right hand technique. Curves are points of strength... of moving loads to points, architecture shows us that, that's why a curve is always better than straight, that's why arches work in buildings, and that is why arched fingers are better than straight.

[NickCormier]

read my first post, I put some picture examples of what I mean.

[VinceS]

I'm not quite sure what you mean. How would you describe Pino Palladino's right hand in this video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pm7l7XfV_Pg

You mentioned that you use floating thumb technique. Suppose you rest your thumb on the pickup while playing the 4th string, on the 4th while playing the 3rd, and so on. How much can you curl or straighten out your fingers, given the space between each string? Would the length of one's fingers make any difference?

[()smoke()]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

I'll give you a fact...the finger need to have some curl in them.
Finger joints are only held together by soft tissue, remove the soft tissue and they will fall apart, in other words they do not lock together, they fit together. Without to much detail on anatomy but pointing out the main points, tension has to run through the joints not over them. When the fingers are straight tensions run over them, not through them.

Easiest way to visualise/demonstrate this is to think of a spring.
If you compress it straight it will carry the tension, if you try and compress it off centre or let the middle "belly out" it will pop out of shape because the tension is not going through it, but over it, and over on side in particular. Take a small spring out of a pen and try it.
Your fingers are like that, by using the curl in your fingers you pass forces and tensions through the joints allowing the soft tissue of muscle, ligament, etc to do there job.

There are numerous problems that occur in many fields of life when this principal is ignored, some times it is minor,(stiff joints, sore hands) some times it is major ( sagittal band rupture). The hand has a natural curl so use it within any left or right hand technique. Curves are points of strength... of moving loads to points, architecture shows us that, that's why a curve is always better than straight, that's why arches work in buildings, and that is why arched fingers are better than straight.

i think i get what you are trying to say, but when you say, "If you compress it straight it will carry the tension", you lose me...if you compress it, it's in compression, not tension, no?

structural arches in architecture carry compression loads only, no tension

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by ()smoke()

i think i get what you are trying to say, but when you say, "If you compress it straight it will carry the tension", you lose me...if you compress it, it's in compression, not tension, no?

structural arches in architecture carry compression loads only, no tension

Sorry i see how the confusion could be there, i talk about tension in the spring and the act of loading one. If we push down on a spring it will compress, but it will have tension, the tension to return to its original shape. If that tension is allowed to escape then the energy produced, if not controlled, can have a detrimental effect.

[NickCormier]

Originally Posted by VinceS

I'm not quite sure what you mean. How would you describe Pino Palladino's right hand in this video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pm7l7XfV_Pg

You mentioned that you use floating thumb technique. Suppose you rest your thumb on the pickup while playing the 4th string, on the 4th while playing the 3rd, and so on. How much can you curl or straighten out your fingers, given the space between each string? Would the length of one's fingers make any difference?

Im a big Mayer fan, but havent looked much into Pino's playing.

I would consider Pino doing what I do now, fingers are pretty much straight. Sure, it works for him but hes also not a very technical player, so it doesnt matter too much. The benefit to the curl is that it has a smaller area of motion, meaning more accurate picking. No chance for hitting other strings, faster movements, etc.

when you put your thumb on other strings you can perform the task either way, altho I do find it kinda hard to get an attack with the meat of my finger for the curled method, altho I think its just practice/will take afew months to develope, after a year of doing the other way. Finger length shouldnt matter as long as your fingers are normal.

[Schlyder]

Curled slightly and relaxed.
The photo of yourself, your RH looks good.
Just make sure it's relaxed.
Relaxed is the key.
Relaxed muscles move faster then tense muscles.

[NickCormier]

isnt a pic of me, just one i found online. but looks pretty much the same.

I did some research, Victor wooten and marcus miller both play the same way I do.. but I wonder how much of their playing really is finger style.. I know their "forte" is slap&pop, and thats what everyone always freaks out about when talking about them.. From what I can see (or hear, I only have afew marcus albums).. his normal fingerstyle isnt anything spectacular, definitely not technically like John Myung/Billy Sheehan or the metal guys.. which I want to be versatile enough to do everything. So thats the issue, im not sure I can play those super fast prog stuff with this fingerstyle..

[sammyp]

if you're feeling your technique is similar to Victor Wooten's i'd say you're on the right track ....i wouldn't say his forte is slap and pop - i'd say his forte is bass...all of it! LOL

[Muaguana]

OP at start:

Originally Posted by NickCormier

Is having your fingers curled at the middle joint much more efficient? I can see how it would be more useful for speed stuff, and it actually looks like it could have a bit more control (less string noise from your straight fingers being so far out)

OP 24 hours later:

Originally Posted by NickCormier

Im a big Mayer fan, but havent looked much into Pino's playing.

I would consider Pino doing what I do now, fingers are pretty much straight. Sure, it works for him but hes also not a very technical player, so it doesnt matter too much. The benefit to the curl is that it has a smaller area of motion, meaning more accurate picking. No chance for hitting other strings, faster movements, etc."

Sounds like you already have the answer to your own question. Why does this thread exist again?

[NickCormier]

well if someone can show me a technical player who uses straight fingers for their playing, someone comparible to John Myung/etc, I might reconsider (since bass is my secondary, maybe 3rd instrument)

But as it stands now, most of the fast players do the curled fingers.

[puddin tame]

Now I might be way off here, but I always considered it just two different techniques to utilise for different sounds. No either or, I use both.

Straighter fingers for a deeper, more mellow tone. Curled plucking sort of style for more of a treble-y attack

[Fergie Fulton]

Electric bass guitar is a new young instrument, so its techniques are still to be measured and understood in a manner as to how they impact on a player. As with everything in life there will be exceptions to the rule and then there will be how the rule affects you as a player.
If you develop any technique because your favourite player uses it you only see a small part of it. You never see the hard work or the pain ( if any), the practise and development. You see a snap shot of it, the finished article. There is no guarantee that in later life that player will suffer because of his technique, but there is not one to say he won't. What we do is look at what is desirable in a technique and promote it.

There will always be players who will strive to be different or develop something new and that has to be welcomed, but common sense needs to be in there as well. Damage or injury is not always noticeable, it may take a life time to show. As player do other things in life we have to look at there influence on any injury/technique.

As i said at the start, electric bass is a new young instrument, and as more and more is understood about it, then the more we will understand the best ways to develop techniques to use. Straight finger or curl? Well lets look at other things we do with straight fingers, then things we do with a curl in them.
Bass guitar playing requires dexterous use of the finger tips and the best way to achieve this is with a curl in the fingers.
It is not just the fingers, it is the wrist, the elbow, the shoulder. All these things need to compensate for a technique to work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pm7l7XfV_Pg

Pino does indeed bend his fingers at the joint, because it is movement in motion it is hard to see, but his fingers have a curl to them. Note the wrist position, it seems very arched over the body, a point that many would frown upon, but it works for Pino and many others i may add. This is just a snap shot of technique in motion, Pinos technique.....what works best for him at present.

[NickCormier]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

Electric bass guitar is a new young instrument, so its techniques are still to be measured and understood in a manner as to how they impact on a player. As with everything in life there will be exceptions to the rule and then there will be how the rule affects you as a player.
If you develop any technique because your favourite player uses it you only see a small part of it. You never see the hard work or the pain ( if any), the practise and development. You see a snap shot of it, the finished article. There is no guarantee that in later life that player will suffer because of his technique, but there is not one to say he won't. What we do is look at what is desirable in a technique and promote it.

There will always be players who will strive to be different or develop something new and that has to be welcomed, but common sense needs to be in there as well. Damage or injury is not always noticeable, it may take a life time to show. As player do other things in life we have to look at there influence on any injury/technique.

As i said at the start, electric bass is a new young instrument, and as more and more is understood about it, then the more we will understand the best ways to develop techniques to use. Straight finger or curl? Well lets look at other things we do with straight fingers, then things we do with a curl in them.
Bass guitar playing requires dexterous use of the finger tips and the best way to achieve this is with a curl in the fingers.
It is not just the fingers, it is the wrist, the elbow, the shoulder. All these things need to compensate for a technique to work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pm7l7XfV_Pg

Pino does indeed bend his fingers at the joint, because it is movement in motion it is hard to see, but his fingers have a curl to them. Note the wrist position, it seems very arched over the body, a point that many would frown upon, but it works for Pino and many others i may add. This is just a snap shot of technique in motion, Pinos technique.....what works best for him at present.

Sure, people can do what they want to be "unique".. but there is always going to be a more EFFICIENT way to do things, and that is what I was talking about in this thread.

You can play piano with all 10 fingers, or you can play piano with just your index finger. Sure, you could probably achieve the exact same tonal results with practice just using your index finger (for single note melodies anyways).. but the fact of the matter is, its more efficient to use more fingers.

That is what I am talking about. Pino's style is one thing, and it works for him, but its not the most effective method of playing bass.

I come from a guitar background, where I find guitar is a LOT more focused on proper technique (especially classical guitar, holy ****, you wouldnt even get accepted in any university if you dont play EXACTLY how the classical way is)..

And as Billy Sheehan shown in that video (Hate him for his tone, or personality, or note choices or music genres, but you cant disagree with his fingerpicking consistency and speed.. its top notch) that there is a large difference in effectiveness between the two techniques I've been mentioning in this thread. I was hoping there was someone who was afew years into this technique already and could mention their experiences in it, but I suppose it will be hard to find those type of perfectionists.

[Rick Robins]

""I was hoping there was someone who was a few years into this technique already and could mention their experiences in it""

I am a committed finger style player & have used the 3 finger technique for better than 20 years now. It is my primary form but not the only one I use depending on the material I am playing, if I'm playing for myself or hired by another & what they require. What type of bass is in my hands, how it is built and the specifics of string spacing, pick up configuration, etc.

If you desire to attain speed, production style efficiency & have your fingers pick like a pick player Billy's video you attched explains it well.

Thumb anchored, centered on the middle finger. Picking fingers close & bent at the small joint, 90 degrees most time,(if you notice even Billy gets a 45 degree angle some times & he will work from the further finger joint) elbow up, pinky parallel to the face of the bass. Thumb is participating in muting in conjunction with a barre of some sort with the fret hand. You will find your thumb floats but most times only
a max of 2 string spaces between thumb & picking.

Ergonomically speaking I find it works best with a wider string spacing. Billy's ATT's have 3/4 center line spacing at the bridge to the neck joint. P style pick ups or a soap bar. So in short P Style. I find it sucks on a J bass & those small string spaced 5's/6's.

Some Songs/licks to learn in conjunction with the technique.not played with 3 fingers.
This way you will see for yourself where you find it to be best suited.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hu4PB...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYKYka-PNt0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_5txk-Y9EM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NauVD47s5Ng

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzdUy90vTuk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWh8HzCxtOg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaV-I5C90zk

& as Billy says this guy only uses two fingers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6at4jSG3cUc

[Chris K]

Originally Posted by NickCormier

Sure, people can do what they want to be "unique".. but there is always going to be a more EFFICIENT way to do things, and that is what I was talking about in this thread.

You can play piano with all 10 fingers, or you can play piano with just your index finger. Sure, you could probably achieve the exact same tonal results with practice just using your index finger (for single note melodies anyways).. but the fact of the matter is, its more efficient to use more fingers.

That is what I am talking about. Pino's style is one thing, and it works for him, but its not the most effective method of playing bass.

I come from a guitar background, where I find guitar is a LOT more focused on proper technique (especially classical guitar, holy ****, you wouldnt even get accepted in any university if you dont play EXACTLY how the classical way is)..

And as Billy Sheehan shown in that video (Hate him for his tone, or personality, or note choices or music genres, but you cant disagree with his fingerpicking consistency and speed.. its top notch) that there is a large difference in effectiveness between the two techniques I've been mentioning in this thread. I was hoping there was someone who was afew years into this technique already and could mention their experiences in it, but I suppose it will be hard to find those type of perfectionists.

Agreed.

Some great bass players are called great bass players mainly because they were in great bands.

On top of that there is the difference between great as a musician and great in the purely technical sense.

[elavate7]

i tend to keep my fingers curled....it should jsut come naturally

[62Jazzbass]

Originally Posted by puddin tame

No either or, I use both.

+1