floating thumb/playing fast

progrmr · #1 07-15-2009, 03:48 PM

ok I haven't been playing very long so this will probably make some of you laugh, but I'm willing to endure this to get some advice!

I'm learning "I saw her standing there" by the beatles. And I'm sorry, but I think the bass line is pretty fast throughout the whole song (** pauses for laughter **)

I was actually pretty surprised at the bass line when I first saw it - had no idea there was that much going on in the background until I paid attention LOL!

Here's a part of the main bass line:

---------------------------------
---------6---9---7-6-------------
-----7-7---7---7-----------------
---------------------------------

When I play this to the song over and over and its pretty quick my right hand is really moving up and down at an almost comical pace. It does sound pretty clean but it seems like I'm really doing a lot of work.

Should I stick with the floating thumb while playing this type of up/down string pattern, or should I anchor on E and pluck and mute A when I'm on D, therefore never moving my thumb??

rarisgod · #2 07-15-2009, 03:57 PM

Two different techniques...I haven't paid a lot of attention to the debates for each technique, but have started doing floating thumb now as I've heard somewhere it's supposed to be better for keeping my arm straight in terms of preventing tendonitis. So personally I'm playing almost everything with floating thumb now. So I can recommend continuing with floating thumb and then perfecting it, therefore building endurance for yourself. However, when I play the above written line, I don't move my hand much at all, so perhaps over time you will develop the technique better, which will be beneficial for you IMO.

Also, the line is fairly fast and to keep it going in such a repetitive way is bound to make you tired. Practice brings endurance.

TripleDouble · #3 07-15-2009, 04:14 PM

I played with an anchored thumb for my first few years, then when I switched to floating/resting very lightly on the low E or B my playing became much more relaxed, and therefore more precise, faster and more sensitive to accents and dynamics and such. For me anchoring the thumb added tension, made my hand cramp and wasted engery. So if you can do both equally well, I'd say save yourself the trouble of relearning and go for the float. Just my opinion, plenty of people get amazing results both ways, that's just what has worked for me. The key is to relax, focus, and practice slowly and gradually work quicker things up to where it's second nature.

And great choice of tunes, nobody around here's going to turn their nose up at you for learning classic, fundamentally essential stuff like that. Give Helter Skelter and Come Together a shot while you're in the neighborhood. Good luck to you.

Kevinmach · #4 07-15-2009, 05:56 PM

Quote:

I'd say save yourself the trouble of relearning and go for the float

+1.

Switching to this style set me back a bit as well, due to the changes in hand position. But I agree that this will resolve itself in time, and the benefits were immediately obvious when I played pieces slowly- easy muting of the strings, less tension on the fingers when playing the higher strings, and the ability to play notes on the higher strings with more ease and fluidity.

Picking up new techniques usually has the effect of relearning things before they get back to where they were when you played them the old way- one small step back to take two big steps forward, after a few weeks or months of practice. That was the case when I said good bye to my thumb humping the pickup full time, but it was well worth it for me!

kesslari · #5 07-15-2009, 06:06 PM

Sounding clean is important.
Watch yourself play in the mirror, and slow things down to where you can focus on making your right hand efficient with floating thumb.
Several great, very fast players (Gary Willis comes to mind) play floating thumb. It doesn't have to be slow

progrmr · #6 07-15-2009, 07:47 PM

Thanks for the tips! I watched some videos on youtube and my right hand technique is in trouble. Started making some changes - going to be slow going for while, but better now that later I guess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TripleDouble

Give Helter Skelter and Come Together a shot while you're in the neighborhood. Good luck to you.

I'll do that - always looking for song ideas!

progrmr · #7 07-16-2009, 08:47 AM

wow - well after a night of practicing the "floating thumb" technique its going to be quite a change. I can't practice sitting down anymore - because all the motion comes from the shoulder rather than the wrist, and when I'm sitting the bass is higher so it makes the shoulder ache even more.

I did practice standing up and was able to play for a long time pretty comfortably, although I caught myself dropping my elbow several times. I'm getting the feel for it though.

I practice sitting on my couch all the time but with the shoulder getting so tight so fast, I don't see how that's a viable option.

Will the shoulder ache thing clear up with time?

TripleDouble · #8 07-16-2009, 09:14 AM

Hmm, pain is no good. It depends if the ache is from overuse or bad posture I guess. How long did you play for?

I know this will sound a little new-agey, but you play with your whole body and it's really important to stand/sit up straight and keep all your joints and tendons and ligaments aligned and relaxed, and try to be aware of small adjustments that keep you doing things with as little resistance from your body as possible so you're totally loose. I usually run some scales, or even just play some slower eigth notes with a metronome at the beginning of a practice session or before a gig if possible (usually not) for a couple minutes and focus on relaxing, breathing right, adjusting my technique, and gettin' "In the zone".

Kesslari's mentioning Gary Willis is a good call, you should check out some youtubes of him, both to see how he uses his thumbs, hands and his whole body's posture-hands connected to wrists to shoulders to neck and back, and to see what a great bassist he is too. Matt Garrison is another guy who makes totally insane, amazing playing look so easy, and has a very floaty hand technique.

Feel free to ask more questions, I hope this helps, I wish I had this forum to ask people stuff like this 20+ years ago. But Commodore-64's and 300 baud modems, not so much...

progrmr · #9 07-16-2009, 09:34 AM

Its not so much pain as it is muscle ache.

I've been playing about 10 months and used movable anchor the entire time, no care to the bend in my wrist and using my wrist to move up/down the strings. Now that I'm bringing my elbow out so my wrist is straight, palm against the body of the bass, its like these muscles that have never been used before in my shoulder (which now controls the movement up/down the strings) are being used in a way they are not used to.

This makes me think that the more I do it, the better it will get. Standing up is pretty much just fine, but sitting the bass rides higher. With my palm against the body of the bass and elbow in good alignment my upper arm is almost parallel to the ground. So the shoulder is again being worked in a way that its not used to and becomes quite unbearable pretty quickly LOL

I did just start using the floating thumb correctly yesterday so maybe this will all resolve itself with a weeks of practice. I really want to use good form so I'm trying to keep everything correct so I won't have to re-learn the basics again later.

I'm off to checkout those vids!

sevenyearsdown · #10 07-16-2009, 09:37 AM

Didn't Sir Paul use a pick?

tZer · #11 07-16-2009, 09:42 AM

You're describing a part that's on adjacent strings. If it's the speed that's causing you issues, the best thing you can do for yourself is slow down. Practice it (with a time-keeping mechanism like a drum machine or metronome) SLOWLY until you have it perfect. Then speed up the time-keeper a little and repeat.

The key is to slow it to a speed where you don't have difficulty and practice it at that speed until you have the part nailed. When you have it nailed - and I mean flawless - tick up your metronome about 5 bpm and practice it at that pace until you have it nailed. Then another 5...

I'd be willing to bet if you did that for 1/2 hour today at the end of that 1/2 hour you'd be wondering why you ever had any problem at all.

The key to leaning to play fast is learning to practice SLOW, get the part PERFECT, and gradually increase speed.

As for floating thumb - I use it (mostly) and find it to be very helpful in keeping strings muted and allowing for fluid motion across the strings while being able to maintain a very consistent picking/plucking technique. So learning it is a fine thing. But it's not a 'speed' solution - it's a muting solution. You can play fast with or without using the floating thumb.

unclejane · #12 07-16-2009, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by progrmr

wow - well after a night of practicing the "floating thumb" technique its going to be quite a change. I can't practice sitting down anymore - because all the motion comes from the shoulder rather than the wrist, and when I'm sitting the bass is higher so it makes the shoulder ache even more.

I did practice standing up and was able to play for a long time pretty comfortably, although I caught myself dropping my elbow several times. I'm getting the feel for it though.

I practice sitting on my couch all the time but with the shoulder getting so tight so fast, I don't see how that's a viable option.

Will the shoulder ache thing clear up with time?

Yes, the muscle group you're using in your shoulder hasn't been used in that manner before so it's going to be sore as jeepers for a couple weeks. Mine was super sore for 2 weeks after I switched to FT but eventually I got used to it.

It's worse when playing seated since you're holding your arm up somewhat higher.

But Todd Johnson is right on - you want a big muscle group doing the work and not all the little tendons and stuff in your wrist taking all the punishment.

I do FT 99% of the time now and have never looked back. My right wrist has completely cleared up of the problems I was having before....

Now I just have to attack the problems with my left wrist -one down, one to go

LS

progrmr · #13 07-16-2009, 09:51 AM

Checked out Gary Willis - Progressive Bassics Pt. 2 on YouTube - explains why I have so much aching going on while sitting down - basically he shows to position the bass between the legs so that correct posture can be achieved. When you sit the bass moves further to the right and causes the elbow to drop or excessive work to be done by the shoulder to keep the posture correct. VERY good videos, here's a link to the first in the series:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u82A7...eature=related

tZer thanks for the reinforcement of the walk before you run concept. I do typically use a metronome and play slow until I get it down then bump up the speed. Sometimes I fee like I have it and try to get it at full speed and get frustrated when I fumble/can't find the right notes!

Patience, progrmr-son, patience

unclejane · #14 07-16-2009, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevinmach

+1.

Switching to this style set me back a bit as well, due to the changes in hand position. But I agree that this will resolve itself in time, and the benefits were immediately obvious when I played pieces slowly- easy muting of the strings, less tension on the fingers when playing the higher strings, and the ability to play notes on the higher strings with more ease and fluidity.

Picking up new techniques usually has the effect of relearning things before they get back to where they were when you played them the old way- one small step back to take two big steps forward, after a few weeks or months of practice. That was the case when I said good bye to my thumb humping the pickup full time, but it was well worth it for me!

For what it's worth, my playing improved significantly _by the end of the day_ after watching TJ's video and trying it out. Till my shoulder started to get exhausted and I had to stop, that is.

The only other wierd thing was retraining my plucking fingers in the new position they were in - my timing was messed up and I played with a kind of 2-finger "gallop" all the time rather than nice even 1,2,1,2....

That took a couple months of slow work to get used to but I'm back to a smooth alternation, or well it's at least as good as it was before..... Nicest thing is I can now do it on every string, which I never could do before...

LS

progrmr · #15 07-16-2009, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sevenyearsdown

Didn't Sir Paul use a pick?

LOL I believe you are correct sir! I just can't bring myself to play a bass with a pick...I know a lot of people use a pick but I think its heresy

TripleDouble · #16 07-16-2009, 10:09 AM

And everyone who uses a pick like totally sux...I'm wickid runnin for cover and in no way serious hey.

tZer · #17 07-16-2009, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by progrmr

Standing up is pretty much just fine, but sitting the bass rides higher.

If you can - and since you're in the process of altering your overall technique anyway - you should strap your bass so that it's in the same place standing or sitting. You shouldn't have to learn two completely separate techniques to accommodate whether your standing or not and you should always - 100% of the time - play with your instrument strapped on.

As long as you're updating your right hand technique, you might as well take a new look at how you wear your instrument.