Fretless Bass Technique: Double Stops, can anyone help?

[Garmonbozia]

My intonation for the most part has been pretty good on the fretless. However, in regards to double stops I find it incredibly difficult to keep them in tune. I realize that playing tenths and major sixths are not what I will be spending most of my time doing, particularly in modern rock music, but nonetheless, I would like to be able to do it cleanly should the opportunity present itself. Tenths I don't have so much of a problem, but 6ths and 11ths I find particularly difficult. It isn't an ear problem, I notice that they are out of tune regardless of whether or not there is a source to compare it too. Does anyone have any advice on practicing double stops?

Also, and this ties in with the post, are there any good resource books for the fretless bass, or are we really limited to books written for the double bass? I'm really referring to technical books, such as scales, arpeggios and etudes that address the issues of a fretless bassist. Now of course, you could argue that any issue one would come across you'll find in either a DB or EB book, but I disagree. I find that I'm always having to cross reference materials. It's true that they all use the bass clef, but so does the Tuba, but that doesn't mean that a book of Tuba Etudes is necessarily appropriate for an EBassist. Now of course if one searches, you could indeed find suitable material in the Tuba reperetoire, I merely mean that I'm looking for a single source, addressing the issues of Fretless Bass Players.

Any suggestions?

[Skitch it!]

I find muscle memory over the scale of the neck helps a lot with 6th's, and which particular fingerings to use for the strongest intonation.

Just an example of one way to play a C Major scale in 6th's on a four string while maintaining a rough positioning:

Mid 8th fret E string + Index 7th fret D string,

Ring (or Pinky more for lower positions) 10th fret E string + Idex 8th fret D string,

Index 7th fret A string + Pinky 10th fret D string,

Mid 8th fret a string + Index 7th fret G string,

Ring 10th fret a string + Mid 9th fret G string,

Index 7th fret D string + Pinky 10th G string,

Index 9th fret D string + Pinky 12th fret G string,

Then skip up to Mid 15th fret A string + Index 14th fret G string.

Just one of a few different combinations/positions, starting on various points across the board helps muscle memory for particular positions.

I also practice the same scale/s just using 2 strings. C major in 6th's ascending from C (3rd fret A string), to it's Octave - (15th fret A string) changing between Index and Mid for Major 6th's, Ring and Index for Minor 6th's.

I tend to gravitate to particular stronger fingerings for sliding 6th's ala Pino. Personally I find 5th's trickier to intonate myself but practicing them across the scale using different fingerings embeds some span.

As far as dedicated books for fretless you might find some recommendations here FretlessBass.com - Home.

I will say the clip-on Snark tuner is great for checking intonation practice as you play, good note tracking and easily visible/unobtrusive left on the head-stock, my 2 cents.

[Mayers]

After playing fretless for 5 years and DB for a 3 years. I don't think there is a lot of technic that is unique to the fretless bass.

Glissando with harmonics or with false harmonics is what I think is a unique technic for fretless otherwise is just owning your skills and lot and lot of practice.

[BassChuck]

Get a clip on tuner and only look at when you really need help. For instance, get the lower note of your interval in tune with the tuner, look away and try to get the upper note in tune with the lower as quickly as possible. Once you think you're intune, check the tuner to be sure. It comes down to getting the sound in your ear and feel of the interval in your fingers.

[Roy Vogt]

I'd check out the Jaco Pastorius Bass Method, particularly the first 3 chapters. Steve Bailey did a great fretless book in the early 90s for CPP Belwin if you can get it. Finally, I'd get a copy of Bach Cello Suites for cello and learn some of them 8va in cello range.

[Garmonbozia]

Hey everyone thanks for the replies!

I actually do have a copy of the cello suites because I used to play cello! I play those things religiously since I'm a huge Bach nerd! I'm currently working on the 3rd Prelude. I've decided to skip the G Major for the moment, but I plan to come back to it later.

Mayers:
It is true that there isn't many techniques that are unique to fretless bass in the sense that it borrows techniques from fretted EB and DB. However, it seems to me that it is this combination of the two instruments that gives the Fretless it's own unique voice. With it I think, comes it's own set of technical problems that should be addressed individually. Anyways, this has just been my experience.

[Mayers]

Originally Posted by Garmonbozia

Mayers:
It is true that there isn't many techniques that are unique to fretless bass in the sense that it borrows techniques from fretted EB and DB. However, it seems to me that it is this combination of the two instruments that gives the Fretless it's own unique voice. With it I think, comes it's own set of technical problems that should be addressed individually. Anyways, this has just been my experience.

Hum yeah I agree on that. From what I could tell after playing them both is the scale of the fretless BG that give a lot of technical problem over the DB in case like a double stop.

[longfinger]

Out of tune for who?

One of the things I've come to enjoy, and struggle with, playing fretless bass guitar and double bass is the ability to play pure thirds and 6ths. A tempered 6th is slightly out of tune, so if you go for a pure sixth, it will sound better, until a guitarist or pianist plays with you. Then you jumble around a little bit.. If you were to practice alone and play until they sound right (not look right on the fingerboard relative to dots and lines), then likely you'll be playing pure intervals, that's good. Then you'll be able to adjust when playing with tempered instruments because you'll hear the difference. (at least that's the hope...)

Anyways, for tips to practice... play the intervals and listen. Fudge around until it sounds great, then only after that look at your fingers and see where they are in relation to dots and lines. The visual cues, you'll hear+see are only approximate.

[Audiophage]

Darn tempered instruments, ruining our fretless purity!

[1958Bassman]

Originally Posted by Garmonbozia

My intonation for the most part has been pretty good on the fretless. However, in regards to double stops I find it incredibly difficult to keep them in tune. I realize that playing tenths and major sixths are not what I will be spending most of my time doing, particularly in modern rock music, but nonetheless, I would like to be able to do it cleanly should the opportunity present itself. Tenths I don't have so much of a problem, but 6ths and 11ths I find particularly difficult. It isn't an ear problem, I notice that they are out of tune regardless of whether or not there is a source to compare it too. Does anyone have any advice on practicing double stops? Any suggestions?

If you find that you always have to hunt for the notes, check the intonation at the 7th and 19th frets- play the harmonic and then fret the note to make sure they're the same pitch. The 12th fret harmonic and note can sound like they're good but the 7th/19th can be off enough that accuracy is out of the question.

[theretheyare]

+1 on the remarks on tempered tuning. So do not use any tuners, just your ears.

What I also found to have an influence is the tuning in fourths, as opposed to 5ths such as for example cello, such as you also play. I have experimented with tuning in fifths on a bass and the exact same double stops (written exactly the same, so fingered differently) had definetly a cleaner sound to it in 5ths, than in regular 4ths tuning.

My problem was that the consequence would be to relearn the bass from the ground up, because i dont really play cello. But since you already play cello, all you'd have to do is find a tuning in fifths for bass, the strings to do it with, and aplly the cello fingerings you already know.

[nysbob]

It all comes back to your ear...if it sounds good, it IS.

Another good exercise is to try a holding constant interval, a fifth is basic and easy to hear, and sliding it to different neck positions - it will reinforce the need to constantly and consistently make the adjustment required.

Fretless is a journey.

Garmonbozia may be the coolest screen name ever, but I doubt many know its origin.

[Anonymatt]

Yeah, I would argue that it is an ear issue. Skip the tuner and focus on interval training. Doublestops on bass seem to be cool or suffer to the same degree as the rest of my intonation given the situation. Also, could be weak technique that's hindering your ability to "concentrate" on the tones. Those intervals are not physically easy, so until your movement issues are completely resolved, you may not have the level of ear ability that you usually might when simply playing those intervals.

[Garmonbozia]

Hey everyone! Again, thanks for more replies, keep these coming they help a lot!

I'm not sure I was clear in my initial post, but this is mostly a technical issue. I'm willing to concede that my ears are a part of it, but this is something that I notice regardless of whether or not I'm performing with somebody. Let me give you an example a tune that I play that is ridiculously difficult to keep in tune. As I said earlier, I'm a huge Bach nerd (really a Baroque nerd, but who wants to play baroque music with an electric bassist!!! ), a piece that I've been working on the fretted for a little while is Bach's Lute Sonata in E Minor, the Bouree movement. You know the tune! this one:

J. S. Bach: Bourree in e-minor - YouTube

It's a groovy piece, I usually play it at a slow tempo because it just sounds better on a bass slow to my ears, even though I know it's not meant to be played that way :P . Anyways, on the fretless these double stops are freaking hard!! I can't keep it in tune. I notice right of the bat! First chord! It's a first inversion, but when you close it up together it becomes a sixth, so that's what I'm talking about.

Anyways, this has been difficult for me. What I really want is a book on double stop studies for the fretless bass. :P

P.S. Thanks nysbob! I'm glad somebody got it!! LMAO!!

[fokof]

Funny , That's what I played for my audition to get in College.
I made an arrangement of the two voices on a 4 string fretless bass.


When I practice , I always do a lot of chords and always use an open string as a reference in the voicings.