Fretless / Finger spacing problem

mangablade · #1 02-01-2008, 01:21 AM

Hey, i searched up this sub forum and couldnt find anything:

I recently got this fretless and i've noticed a problem that WAS fine on a fretted bass.

When i do fingers per fret on left hand (and i always do, i try to use as best technique as possible), my fingers are spaced unevenly.

My middle and ring fingers are closer together in comparison to the other fingers. This does throw off my intonation with any pattern playing on a fretless. Wether it be scales or chromatics, theyre out of tune unless i completely forget the finger per fret rule. And i hella dont want to do that :P

Is there a good way to stretch those two fingers out? ive been trying manually just to literally stretch tehm apart but it barely helps at all... They stretch out for like 2mins before reverting back.

Infernal Affair · #2 02-01-2008, 01:32 AM

It'll eventually do it on its own provided that you practice at it and safely do stretches as warm ups. However, don't believe that one finger per fret is an absolute rule. I thought this way until I found out about doing 1-3-4 on the first five frets and it's made playing a lot easier and comfortable with no real noticeable difference. In fact I think my technique has gotten better because of it. Sure, when you're running scales or OFPF style exercises then it's a given to go by it, but again I emphasize that there's no rule out there that says OFPF is the best or only way.

mangablade · #3 02-01-2008, 01:36 AM

one THREE four?

I thought the norm for 3 finger (with pinky) was one TWO four.

as in, index, middle, pinky.

Like upright :P

But anyway i really like OFPF :P

And the spacing problem still kills my tuning for normal scales, in any form of their fingerings. The standard major scale fingering i use (the 4 fret space 1 octave one) starts with my middle finger. Now if that finger , as i've said, is already out by a bit, im screwed :P

Maybe im just paranoid! Lol. probably a bad choice of word too. I just REALLY wanna get good at fretless lol even tho i've only had it for < a week. :P

thanks tho!

TimWinter · #4 02-01-2008, 03:02 AM

Ok, here is my take. Proper technique is has no set rule. The art of modern playing is constantly changing and I have found that I have to listen to my body, fingers in this case, to be able to do what I need to do. I have to agree with Chris in that I have gravitated to a 1 3 4 approach (which is very close to a purely classical 1 23 4 fingering). The problem I have is that I still switch between OFPF and 134 in the lower positions. What I use depends on what I need to do. I will say that if I go for OFPF I do move my arm a bit to aid my finger stretch. I actually learned this from watching Jaco. He is known for having fingers that could wrap around my neck.... but whatever works. The main thing is develop a consistancy that works for you, and what helps to determine that is to develop a technique that is "musical". You may find a technique that in your mind works but won't sound quite right. I guess what I am saying is, do what makes artisitc sense. And now I will get a bit anal, but really, one finger might sound different than another. Like I said; you need to listen to your body and then the instrument. I am sure you have been in a band situation and hopefully you have realized that the sum total of the band's success is equal to the degree of how well they listen to each other. It is the same with you and your instrument. Don't try to tackle this with just your mind. Use your ears, heart, soul, butt etc. One last example: Django Reinhardt. If you know about him great. I have said enough. If not, just know that he had four fingers on his left hand but only two worked, first and middle. But he had as much influence in the art of playing "modern" guitar as anyone. Check this out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4DDkhLM3wI and be amazed.

Infernal Affair · #5 02-01-2008, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mangablade

one THREE four?

I thought the norm for 3 finger (with pinky) was one TWO four.

Sorry. You are correct. I was tired when I typed that. I meant 1-2-4.

And Tim is right. Don't let "proper technique" dominate you. The only limit is if it causes pain and discomfort. For example, wrapping your thumb around the top of the neck is considered horrible technique, but you'll find a lot of professional players who do it. I honestly think that once you learn proper technique and know what you're supposed to do, making sure to realize the limits and potential physical harm something might cause, then bending the rules to work for you is acceptable. I think it's great that you are keeping in mind proper technique though.

The middle-ring stretch is often the most uncomfortable. Even the ring-pinky seems easier to me. As for what might help you, in this case where you can't make the stretch from one finger to another try shifting or pivoting your thumb more to compensate. It should help a lot no matter which fingering you use. And take advantage of the fact that it's really easy to slide on that neck! If you don't hit the mark right away you can slide into it quickly. I noticed that when I was messing around with the Squier VM fretless in GC (unplugged since I don't want to have anyone bear my novice fretless playing) that I have the same problem as you where I'd be off the mark on the fingerings because of stretches, but concentrated on shifting more and it made it much better. Fretless seems like tons of fun!

HaVIC5 · #6 02-01-2008, 09:42 AM

Actually, 1-3-4 is a valid technique on the upright, just not as used as 1-2-4. The bassist Eduoard Nanny came up with a method based upon this fingering, just like Franz Simandl came up with a 1-2-4 method. Both work.

Infernal Affair · #7 02-01-2008, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

Actually, 1-3-4 is a valid technique on the upright, just not as used as 1-2-4. The bassist Eduoard Nanny came up with a method based upon this fingering, just like Franz Simandl came up with a 1-2-4 method. Both work.

Very interesting to know.

I actually use 1-2-4. Like I said, I was tired when I typed that, and I'll leave up my typo since the thread wouldn't make sense otherwise.

TimWinter · #8 02-01-2008, 01:55 PM

"Jazz is not dead, it just smells funny."

Someone has "Roxy and Elswhere". One of Frank's finest.

kayakbass · #9 02-01-2008, 02:59 PM

Some of the best advice I've EVER gotten on fretless playing was from Eddie Coryell at MI. Continue to use your one finger per fret technique as you do on your fretted bass. There's nothing wrong with that technique on a fretless.. Jaco, Gary Willis, Steve Bailey....need I go on with the name dropping? When you practice, play your fretted bass but play ON TOP OF THE FRETS. Bad tone, but will teach your fingering hand proper spacing through muscle memory. If it can work for me, it will work for anyone.

Fretlessboy · #10 02-01-2008, 03:57 PM

one of the biggest things I find that help the most is having matching basses fretted and fretless...this can be a pricey thing to do depending on what your main bass is bt is very worth it in the long run.

bkbirge · #11 02-01-2008, 04:22 PM

Some pretty good advice here, but as a 20+ year fretless vet, the thing that helped me the best is to practice scales/arpeggios slowly and always have a chromatic tuner hooked up. Make sure every note you play is spot on with the tuner. This will get you into good fretless playing in no time. I've played OFPF and 124 and 134 and nothing helps like good old ear training combined with muscle memory. Now that I'm into double bass too this helps a lot better than memorizing where invisible frets might be.

Edit: a cheap and widely used tuner is the Korg CA-30.

mangablade · #12 02-01-2008, 04:57 PM

I really like the idea of playing ON THE FRETS, that sounds perfect actually! i think it'd really really help for my chord intonation too. which i assume like all starter fretless players is quite a ways off from perfect

My fretted is an SR505 ibby, and the fretless is a Douglas wbp995 fretless (i believe thats the model) . Besides pickups/bridge 2 vs 3 band eq, they are very very alike.

Yeah i was def hoping that fretless would improve my upright playing as well. and i have that korg sitting in front of me.. its broken tho

:P I was wondering tho, Would it be better practice to try to work on intonation by ear or by chromatic tuner? My ear is good enough that i pick up out of tune notes pretty well. Some of the hard intervals of course are a bit harder to tune, but octaves/fifths are cake, 3rds/2nds/7ths are gettign there etc.

Thanks everyone for the sound advice!

Infernal Affair · #13 02-01-2008, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mangablade

I really like the idea of playing ON THE FRETS, that sounds perfect actually! i think it'd really really help for my chord intonation too. which i assume like all starter fretless players is quite a ways off from perfect

Actually on a lined fretless you're supposed to play on the frets, but remember to adjust your fingering for correct intonation. It may be a little before or after the line. Use your ears and all will be well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mangablade

Yeah i was def hoping that fretless would improve my upright playing as well. and i have that korg sitting in front of me.. its broken tho

:P I was wondering tho, Would it be better practice to try to work on intonation by ear or by chromatic tuner?

Using both will help you develop your ear and muscle memory. With a tuner handy you'll know whether you're off even if your ear thinks you're on.