Fretting fingers - Should I use the 1-2-4 or the 1-2-3-4 method?

[Fender32]

As someone who was largely self-taught and then went on to get some further guidance from the "Hal Leonard Bass Method" books and DVDs, I've always adopted the 1-2-4 system of fretting at the low end of the neck and tried to switch over to a 1-2-3-4 system further up the neck, once the frets start to feel "tight" .

This week, I had my first ever bass lesson, from a semi-professional teacher. One of the first things that he picked up on, was the fact that I was not consistent in the way that I fret across the width of the neck (true ) and he instructed me that I should learn to use the 1-2-3-4 fingering method on all parts of the neck.

Now, he is a far better player, musician and (probably) teacher than I will ever be, so in any other situation, I'd simply take his advice and get on with practising this until I either get it down, or lose the use of my fingers . However, I feel that I really need a "second opinion" on this one .

Quite simply, fretting the bottom string with the 1st finger at the first fret, the 2nd finger at the second fret, the 3rd finger at the third then the 4th finger on the fourth fret ... hurts like hell and is nowhere even close to sounding "clean", when I try and do it ! I do have very big hands, but my 2nd finger always slides up over the second fret, once the 3rd finger goes down and I struggle like hell to curl my little finger round to reach the fourth fret.

There are two reasons that I feel I should query this now (rather after months of trying ):

1. The Hal Leonard book clearly states; "Never forcibly stretch your hand or hold a position that feels strained" and they advocate the 1-2-4 method for (as far as I can tell ) use along most of the neck!?

2. My bass teacher, who can do this 1-2-3-4 thing with ease, has a rather unusual "advantage". As a child, he had an accident, in which he lost the tips of all of the fingers on his left hand, above the top joint . Sounds horrific, doesn't it, but it hasn't hampered his playing skills.


Now, the thing is, if I momentarily "pretend" that my fingers stop at this point, I find that I can actually lay my fingers out across all four frets and, if I could curl them in (without the tip of the finger being in the way), I could probably play the 1-2-3-4 way too (try it yourself, if you're not sure what I mean )!

What I'm afraid to do is to bring up this point with my (brand new) teacher, as it may cause offence and just sound like a feeble excuse for not doing something that he's specifically advised me to do. On the other hand (no pun intended ), I do suffer from arthritis in the middle joints of most of my fingers and I think that I might risk some further damage to them, if I try and force them to stretch in ways that (currently) feel far from even possible !

So, I really need to hear from some of you good people, about the fingering methods that you use and get some advice about how (and at which fret position) to switch between using the 1-2-4 and the 1-2-3-4 methods !?

Thanks for reading and for your suggestions.

(P.S. You can also vote in the poll ).

[Mingus]

I do 1-2-3-4 on the bass guitar, Its really nothing if you do it long enough. try doing this exercise I came up with:

G--------------------4---1---
D------------4---1-----------
A----4---1-------------------
E-1--------------------------4

And repeat. It really helped me get my fingers spread out.

There is also a book of finger patterns that you can use to get you moving around I have, I forget the title though.

[kevinmoore73]

Originally Posted by Fender32

Quite simply, fretting the bottom string with the 1st finger at the first fret, the 2nd finger at the second fret, the 3rd finger at the third then the 4th finger on the fourth fret ... hurts like hell and is nowhere even close to sounding "clean", when I try and do it !

Keep practicing and it will sound clean. The pain should also go away. In my opinion, your teacher is teaching you the right way to play.

[Fender32]

I'm sorry , I've just re-read my post and realised that I left out a key bit of information (and you thought the OP was long enough already ).

I meant to add that I can actually stretch my fingers out far enough to play the 1-2-3-4 style in the 1st fret position, BUT what I can't (yet?) do is what my teacher was advocating and that is to keep all of my fingers held down in position, once the 4th finger goes down.

I just videoed myself attempting to do this (technology, eh? ), so that you can see how "possible" it is when I (firstly) pivot my wrist and release the fingers behind the one I'm holding down, compared to how "ungainly" (and painful ) it is, when I try (unsuccesfully ) to keep everything clamped cleanly down.

Sorry about my ugly, lumpy fingers, BTW .



Anyway, so far, it sounds like the advice is; "Grin and bear it. You'll get there in the end"! Sounds like my teacher is on the right track, after all! Why am I not surprised to learn that ?

Any further advice is most welcome!

[David Lansen]

Hello,

I voted 1-2-3-4 because your poll question was "what do you use", but I just realized the thread title was actually "Should I use..." and I'd like to put in my 2 cents.

Opinions here in the Technique forum are often divided into "the right way" vs. "whatever's comfortable for you". And I think you have to ask yourself one question: "How serious am I or do I want to be in the technical aspect of my bass-playing?" For me, the answer is "Not so much." While I do recognize how some techniques may potentially make me a much better player, should I spend my time and effort to learn them, sometimes I just choose not to.

I rest my thumb on the B string a lot, instead of floating thumb or movable anchor; I rake a hell of a lot; and I don't pay much attention to my fingering, especially when I'm learning a song, and it gets a bit messed up. However, as I get more and more familiar with the song, I find myself getting very close to strictly alternating fingers, even when there's a lot of string crossing; my thumb moves when I'm playing on the higher strings more; and I strictly use one finger per fret. That, to me, is proof that these techniques are at least somewhat advantageous.

The thing is whether you want to bother with it. Ask yourself again, "How serious am I or do I want to be in the technical aspect of my bass-playing?"

David

[luknfur]

FWIW:

I remember when I played guitar doing scales, exercises, proper technique and form, learning millions of chords, and being hung up on not lifting a finger till it was necessary for the sake of efficiency and good technique.

In retrospect, I wished I'd spent that time playing songs with other musicians. Not that it hasn't paid benefits but now I'd only do it to the degree it got me through a song I wanted to play - and was capable of playing at the time I might add. I would have naturally progressed to the level I was capable of playing regardless - and probably a lot faster as well as having more fun and probably learning more about what mattered.

Another thing that crosses my mind is teachers. Some it's my way or the highway. I prefer to work with people who are most interested in getting me to the next step of where I want to go knowing the full picture and being able to express as much (including periodic reminders as appropriate) but not forcing it down my throat regardless of how capable I am at the time or how much I'm interested in that approach.

If I personally needed to practice it or get it down I'd incorporate that into a song I liked where it was fairly repetitive - and give it some time. Your brain has the message and your fingers will follow in accord with their capabilities when they're ready - and eventually beyond anything your brain can handle. As Billie Sheehan has said - if you need to think you know you're in trouble.

[dulouz]

I have struggled with this issue as well. My first recommendation is ALWAYS listen to your hands. If it hurts, you probably are doing something wrong. I was taught to use 1-2-4. However, it is more practical to use 1-2-3-4 in many situations. This is what I discovered:

1.) I needed to build up my finger strength, which I did through practicing scales and other finger drills. It sounds silly, but I even started lifting weights to build up my arm strength.

2.) It is important to change positions to prevent cramping and fatigue. I will use 1-2-4 when I can, and 1-2-3-4 when I need to. I also practice scales that have me covering 5 frets at a time. After that, 4 frets is easy.

Whatever you do, take it easy. Don't force yourself to play through the pain, you could end up with a lot of time off from an injury.

[hunta]

I don't think I've ever seen someone play 1-2-4 on BG. I would put 1-2-4 fingering up there with "floating thumb." I don't understand why anyone would use either of these techniques, but if it's what you like, who's stopping you? It's kind of like the multitude of shoddy bassists that never use their pinky (I used to be one of them lol), you've got a 4th finger why not use it? The only bassist I've seen doing this and it made sense is Rocco Prestia, who uses 1-2-3+4 (ring + pinky together). The muting effect he gets is part of his signature sound.

1-2-3-4 is a more efficient way to play overall, you just don't have to shift as much. Keeping all 4 fingers down is highly debatable however. You might try tightening your strap so the bass rides higher and see if that helps. Overall, If it's painful to do it, don't. It's "better" to keep them all down, but personally I play better when my hand isn't in agony. I tend to adjust my technique a little bit throughout a set to minimize any pain, so I'm probably using "bad" technique a good amount of the time. My bassist's license hasn't been revoked yet.

[rap138]

I voted 1-2-4 but I'm not really a good bass player and probably have plenty more of bad habits.

[bkbirge]

There's zero reason to use 1-2-4 on electric bass. I've got small hands and no problems with 1-2-3-4. Just practice and you'll get it, your muscles have to memorize the physics. 1-2-4 (3 and 4 together) is a traditional method for upright playing but even that is not universal nowadays.

[Christopher]

Personally, I use 1-2-4 for everything below the 9th fret. It doesn't slow me down and keeps my hand relaxed and injury free.

Neither method is "better." Generally speaking, less shifting and pivoting is good. But having a working left hand is good too.

[Fender32]

Originally Posted by Christopher

Personally, I use 1-2-4 for everything below the 9th fret. It doesn't slow me down and keeps my hand relaxed and injury free.

Neither method is "better." Generally speaking, less shifting and pivoting is good. But having a working left hand is good too.

This is an interesting post, Christopher.

Do you switch to 1-2-3-4 specifically at the 9th fret and how does that work out when you're playing the same "shape" riff below the 9th and then moving it up above the 9th (if you ever do that?) ? Do you change shape/fingering, or do you (subconsciously, perhaps) just repeat the shape and fingering as before?

In other words, there are certain "box patterns" which won't be possible with the 1-2-4 techmique an will require a hand shift, or moving up a string. When you employ the 1-2-3-4 technique, another (more economical) fingering option may become available. How easy is it to make that mental shift and switch the "shape", is really my quesion ? God, I hope this explanantion makes sense to you guys !


Anyway, thanks very much to everyone who's voted and replied so far . I'm beggining to sense that the 1-2-4 method is perhaps "looked down upon as inferior", in some way. In that case, it puzzles me as to why the Hal Leonard books should advocate the use of this method exclusively in the lower register on a bass guitar !?

I plan to carry on practising the 1-2-3-4 method, but ONLY if I allow my "redundant" fingers to lift-off the fret if they want to (as in the first part of my "video", in a previous post). In this way, I can try to build up hand strength and dexerity, without putting too much strain on my (already damaged ) finger joints.

As an arthrits sufferer, if I accidentally bang my fingers against a hard surface, the affected joints immediately swell up, get stiff and hurt like hell (as they do in cold damp weather). I really don't think that it would be very unwise for me, personally, to ignore the warnings about "heeding the pain signals".

Ideally, I'd like to be still playing bass (and able to use a computer keyboard ) in 20 years from now !

All the best,

Fender32

[Rune Bivrin]

I use 1-2-3-4, but that doesn't mean my fingers are necessarily perfectly positioned on all four frets at the same time. I'll often have my index finger slide up a bit when the pinky is working, at least when plaing near the nut. This is what Todd Johnson recommends (if I've understood him correctly). But sometimes I'll notice I use 1-2-3. What can I say. I have a short pinky...

Any pain you feel is a signal that something's not quite right. It could be lack of strength, but it's just as likely static tension or tendons in distress. Just be aware of that. If the pain gets worse: stop!

[basssalad]

You should use the 1,2,3,4 finger method, One finger per fret. Just start out at the 5th fret where the spacing is smaller. Also warm up on the g string only. As you move to next finger you can release pressure but still make contact with string.Make sure you play slowly and keep your wrist as straight as possible. thumb behind neck and keep shoulders relaxed. Practice in front of a mirror and take breaks often. Try to get your hand position perfect! If you feel you are playing sloppy, slow down! You must be in control.
I find it helps to focus on one hand at a time. When you do this exercise, don't worry what your right hand is doing, this way you can focus on your left. Before you do this exercise, warm up your right hand playing open strings, focusing on your right hand

[RayO5421]

Go for 1 2 3 4. Its a pain at first but you'll find using the 4th finger is a big help in most styles of music. I used 1 2 3 (pointer, middle, ring) when I first started and it was hard to use my pinky at all, now its second nature to me. Deffinately a lot easier than 1 2 3 in the long run.

[Infernal Affair]

You'll find a lot of people say to use 1-2-3-4 way more than 1-2-4 people. Most people are taught 1-2-3-4 and if they're taught that way "then it must be the right way." I used to use 1-2-3-4 exclusively until within the last few months where I switched to using 1-2-4 on the first 5-7 frets. It's much more comfortable for me and I get a cleaner sound in some cases. My pinky is pretty strong, but using the ring finger to support it helps me stay a bit more consistent. It isn't an absolute though. Often it'll look like I'm playing 1-2-3-4 depending on the song, and if I have to jump four frets on the same string it'll be my pinky hitting that fourth fret for sure. For me it's all based upon what feels right. I'd rather be playing than thinking about my playing and which finger is hitting which fret. Of course that's AFTER developing the technique.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by kevinmoore73

The pain should also go away.

Pain is your bodies way of telling you something. Sometimes (as in this case IMO) it is saying dont do that.

It's not always good to "work through the pain" as you could be doing SERIOUS damage to your hands.

I use 124 for much of my playing. I also use my 3rd finger, but it is usually above the 12th fret or in special situations.

[Deacon_Blues]

I voted for 1-2-3-4 but noticed it's far from the whole truth. What I do vary a lot with the music I'm playing. I play walking and complex lines using 1-2-3-4 fingering, but I have also found myself using also 1-2-3 a lot over the whole neck and sometimes 1-2-4 down at the lowest frets as well. I generally do what's comfortable and don't think too much about it. However, I think I should think more about it, it would probably be the best to always stick to the same technique.

[Lesfunk]

Who cares?
Play with your toes as long as You can do the job musically.

[Fender32]

Several people here have mentioned the pinky, with reference to where most of the work needed to be done in order to be comfortable with the 1-2-3-4 method.

Can I just stress here that my problem is specifically with the 3rd finger and the way in which it bends in towards the 2nd finger. When I sretch it away from the 2nd finger towards the 3rd fret (from position "I"), it always pulls the 2nd finger with it. This can clearly be seen in the video posted earlier.

I'd be really grateful if some of you could have a look at that video and tell me if that particular problem is common (and was something that you have experienced), or if it seems more "abnormal" .

I'm sorry to keep going on about this folks , but I'm really trying to establish whether or not I have an mobility issue with my fingers and whether I should be telling them what to do, or vice versa!? If you've read the OP, youll understand why I can't exactly ask my bass teacher for specific advice on this matter.

Thanks (again ).