Getting around Fretless BG fingering positions

Is there a method that teaches fingering positions on fretless bass guitar similar positions as Simandl? I have this image of upright players having a system to get to any fingering position without using hints from lines or side position markers.

Is the answer as simple as use the Simandl book?

Ed S.

[TolerancEJ]

Sorry, I'm not familiar with the Simandl book.

As fretless bass-guitar players, I believe we're supposed to be using a combination of muscle-memory (remembering vaguely where the notes should be fretted) and a keen ear to the song being played so we can make adjustments to bring the note in tune. Steve Bailey said in an instructional video that No fretless bass players play in tune 100% of the time. We just try to keep our average up. We're always making minor adjustments.

Thanks. The Simandl book is one of the double bass standard method books.
http://www.amazon.com/Method-Double-.../dp/0825801524

I decided to spend a week or two working through the book "My First Simandl", which is a shortened intro to the Simandl method. It introduces the basic positions, I, Half, etc.

I understand muscle memory, etc, but there has to be a way to "see" at least one starting position. Maybe not.

Thanks again,

Ed S.

[jady]

I do not use positions, even on double bass!!! It just doesn't make much sense to me given that I was an electric player first.

The only problem I could see is that if I recall correctly Simandl uses the 3 finger approach (pinky and ring used together) and having all four fingers on a fretless is much more useful. Also, double bass has a completely different feel in the left hand. There is a whole lot more expression available in the left hand on an electric fretless and I can't see how Simandl method would make good use of that.

If you have an unlined fretless there should still be side markers on the neck, use these and visualize the "in between" notes. Above all fretless needs you ears, learn to trust your hands and ears and you eyes will not be as needed.

Just my 2 cents.

Good luck

[Big B.]

That is not neccesarily true about using three fingers on the left hand. I have hands on the smallish side but I play six string bass and a 5 string upright bass. Many people can use all four fingers on the left in lower positions due to the size of their hands. I however cannot, and if I tried my playing would surely suffer. If you are comfortable using four fingers in the lower positions then stay away from the simandl book. On the other hand if you feel that three fingers is more comfortable try the simandl as it places a paramount on good shifting from position to position which makes up for a smaller reach.

I bought a book of bass exercises that I'm finding very helpful training my ear for fretless bass. It is "100 Fretless Bass Workouts" by Chris Matheos, Mel Bay. The first 8 exercises use open strings extensively.

[Hookus]

Originally Posted by Big B.

That is not neccesarily true about using three fingers on the left hand. I have hands on the smallish side but I play six string bass and a 5 string upright bass. Many people can use all four fingers on the left in lower positions due to the size of their hands. I however cannot, and if I tried my playing would surely suffer. If you are comfortable using four fingers in the lower positions then stay away from the simandl book. On the other hand if you feel that three fingers is more comfortable try the simandl as it places a paramount on good shifting from position to position which makes up for a smaller reach.

I think he is talking about upright. A great many upright bassists do not use the ring finger, or if they do, use it in conjunction with the pinky, like a fat-finger.

[Big B.]

No, I am speaking of both. I play both at a high level and my technique is almost identical in the lower positions. The issue is comfort. My hands are not large enough to comfortably use all four fingers on my left hand in lower positions on BG. I think it is pretty obvious that using four fingers is the best answer if it can be done without putting undue stress on your left hand. For me personally, after trying both techniques, I am faster, more flexible, produce a more accurate tone and have more stamina when I use 3 fingers omitting the ring finger. The ring finger is a weaker finger that is tied to your pinky in movement. For people with smaller hands is can be more effective use the pinky and ring finger in combination for added support. As I get higher up the fingerboard I change my fingerings to fit the capability of my hands on the neck. It would be foolish to play in discomfort just because someone else does it a certain way. When I work with students I tailor my lessons towards the technical limitations of each student and not just "do it how I do it".

[Big B.]

One thing that I didnt mention. Double bass methods could be very effective training for bass guitar but there are certain things that must be avoided. Traditional upright bass technique says to support each note with the figers behind it. (Ex. note played with 2nd finger is also supported by 1st finger, note played with 4th finger is supported by 1st, 2nd and 3rd figers.) This has become less and less common on UB and should be avoided entirely on bass guitar. Forgive me for going on and on about this but as a trained musician who began as a self tought musician (as most BG players are), by far the biggest limitation I see bassists dealing with is bad left hand technique. It severly limits your potential for expression and can injure you or end your career in extreme cases.

Originally Posted by Big B.

One thing that I didnt mention. Double bass methods could be very effective training for bass guitar but there are certain things that must be avoided. Traditional upright bass technique says to support each note with the figers behind it. (Ex. note played with 2nd finger is also supported by 1st finger, note played with 4th finger is supported by 1st, 2nd and 3rd figers.) This has become less and less common on UB and should be avoided entirely on bass guitar. Forgive me for going on and on about this but as a trained musician who began as a self tought musician (as most BG players are), by far the biggest limitation I see bassists dealing with is bad left hand technique. It severly limits your potential for expression and can injure you or end your career in extreme cases.

I'm trying to be intuitive with finding some sort of home or starting positions on the fretless. From reading other replies from double bass players, there are physical hints, the back of the neck behind the nut, and the heel. We don't have that on BG.

So, here are 2 attempts that might work, even in the dark.
#1) I put finger 1 just on the nut and squeesed the LH fingers together but the ring (3) finger is about on 'F' note. Not too accurate.

#2) I put finger 1 just on the nut and placed the LH fingers in a relaxed position on the board. Now the (2) finger is about on 'F' note. I tried sounding the F-note then quickly moving into half position or position 1. Much better accuracy.

I'm taking your advice about the DB methods. I am working through the "My First Simandl" book. Although the postition names differ I like how the notes are presented on the strings. reinforced by working on several positions.

BTW, lessons with a jass bassist are in my future (DB and BG player). I have to clean up some loose ends at home and at work, then set up the lessons.

Ed S.

[MNAirHead]

I had someone suggest simply turning off the lights and playing it through headphones.

He's a fretless only player. His comment was to NOT start switching basses.. find one and get to know how far out your hands are.

His other comment was to start playing everything in a region of the neck.. once this region is mastered it is then easier to compensate up and down.

[Big B.]

Dont worry about the positions names in Simandl. Very few upright basses even pay alot of heed to that. Turning off the light is one of the best ways to practice good intonation and familiarity but as a fretless noob that will only confuse you. As you gain some facility it will become a very useful practice tool. Are you playing a bass that was made as a fretless or are you playing a bass that was converted from a fretless? On a fretted bass the side position dots on the neck are centered between the two frets where you would place your finger. On a fretless bass you put your finger exactly where the fret would be. That means the side dots are on the fret and not in between. If you are playing a converted bass the dots will be in the wrong place and can create a lot of confusion. If you have a fretted bass use it as a reference. Place your fingers directly on the fret as opposed to where you would normally place it between the strings. Dont worry about the sound because it will be bad but by putting your fingers on the frets you are placing them exactly where they should be on your fretless. Dont be afraid to put small pieces on the side of the neck if you dont have good position markers. I have played professionaly for 10 years and my upright bass still has a couple of well placed pencil marks on the side of the neck. Lastly, play songs that you know on your fretless and play along with the recording. Dont worry if the song isnt on fretless. By playing along with the recording you hear your pitch more easily and this helps learn to play in tune.

[Big B.]

And yes, a good teacher will be of great help.