Groove VS Chops

TAOspeedwagon · #1 03-11-2010, 11:27 PM

You can only have one. Which is it? Not just for Bass but playing music, period.

I pick groove, any day of the week.

I'm hoping this discussion can turn into something insightful. I'd like to hear other TB'ers responds/reasons for this.

Greevus · #2 03-11-2010, 11:29 PM

someone with chops who can't hold it down will be exposed immediately. dudes with chops are many times very lonely in bedrooms.

Jhonnybass · #3 03-11-2010, 11:45 PM

groove for sure! someone put it nicely for me once. Without notes there would still be music...but without rythym there would not. You need to have good time/groove to even execute the chopsy stuff or else it just sounds like vomit.

EricF · #4 03-12-2010, 10:31 AM

Groove rules all.

superfunk47 · #5 03-12-2010, 12:29 PM

Groove is music. Music, groove.

Chops mean nothing without groove. Groove can stand on its own without chops.

JayB · #6 03-12-2010, 12:38 PM

If you don't groove you probably don't have serious chops on bass. IMHO.

bubinga5 · #7 03-12-2010, 12:40 PM

Groove all the way.....chops are great but they aint music, and they get a little boring after a while...your part of a bigger picture not the picture itself...music is a sum of parts...

i have seen people play with loads of chops but have rubbish groove...in there enthusiasm to get the best chops and technique going they miss the point...you gotta start with the groove.. thats your foundation...leave your ego at home..

Elmo Oxygen · #8 03-12-2010, 12:50 PM

/\ This, that and all that. Groove is where it's at.
I've been fakin' my way through with mostly groove for 17 years... mostly.

jaywa · #9 03-12-2010, 12:59 PM

Groove gets you paid.

jnuts1 · #10 03-12-2010, 01:01 PM

i don't know. does all music groove?

ausf · #11 03-12-2010, 01:06 PM

I know it's going to piss people off, but that's what I feel about players like Wooten. Not that he's not capable of groove, I just get tired of all the flash. When I was younger, I couldn't get enough of Clarke, Jaco et al. But now I just want to hear solid playing with some runs or difficult phrases reluctantly peppered in.

Again, I'm not taking away from these guys at all, I just am not interested anymore. I'd rather hear solid timing and sound like the guy from Gang Of Four. Back in the day, I'd laugh at the simplicity of that style, now it's all I want to hear. I suddenly find myself appreciating Sting.

I mean listening by the way...Groove in my playing? Please. I was raised by Swedes. Howler Monkeys could have instilled better feel. I've spent the better part of my life getting the accordian sounds out of my head.

TAOspeedwagon · #12 03-12-2010, 01:11 PM

i agree. Victor and Jaco doesn't do too much for me either

Lincoln · #13 03-12-2010, 01:14 PM

Groove...

Most grooves come from the musicians' ability to be sensitive to feel and note placement and space. You'd be surprised by the chops behind that ability to groove...

gkbass13 · #14 03-12-2010, 01:16 PM

groove is necessary while chops arent, but i think having chops and tying them into your groove is important and fun for higher level playing and performance.

RBrownBass · #15 03-12-2010, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bubinga5

Groove all the way.....chops are great but they aint music, and they get a little boring after a while...your part of a bigger picture not the picture itself...music is a sum of parts...

i have seen people play with loads of chops but have rubbish groove...in there enthusiasm to get the best chops and technique going they miss the point...you gotta start with the groove.. thats your foundation...leave your ego at home..

On the contrary... IMO it's exactly ego that causes some of us to talk about a subjective concept like "groove" because we don't have as much in the much more measurable, quantifiable area of chops as a lot of players. Some of these players are a bit like the guys who lack the income to buy a Porsche AND extoll the virtues of the safety of older Volvos. If you (not "bubinga5" or "the OP" but a general "you") CAN afford a Porsche and prefer to drive something less expensive, it goes a long way toward making me believe your talk about Volvos. Similarly, I'd like to see more talk about "groove/lack of groove" from players who DO have known chops. That would help eliminate the "sour grapes" angle from these discussions.

Further, when we can define "groove" in a way that everyone here can see and understand and agree with, we'll have a better basis for the discussion.

I don't claim to have a lot of chops...

(let's assume for the sake of this thread that I have no chops or groove whatsoever, so that any responses to my post don't become about me and miss the point)

...but if I did, I bet I'd like to think that I'd have more "groove" to go with them.

Some forms of music require chops, and those forms of music are every bit as musical as those that require only "groove". Those of us who lack one or the other are going to be out of luck trying to get gigs in some form of music.

**StrangerDanger** · #16 03-12-2010, 01:24 PM

Chops means everybody knows your name. Groove means everybody knows your song.

RBrownBass · #17 03-12-2010, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ausf

But now I just want to hear solid playing with some runs or difficult phrases reluctantly peppered in.

I'd think the reluctance would come through in the playing. Why should it be done reluctantly? Why do them at all if you don't feel them to be necessary for the part?

Quote:

I mean listening by the way...Groove in my playing? Please. I was raised by Swedes. Howler Monkeys could have instilled better feel. I've spent the better part of my life getting the accordian sounds out of my head.

I'd bet --and I mean NO insult here-- that you wouldn't mind having your pickups and electronics designed by a Swede. Why not give their music the same respect?

If you were reared by Swedes, then groove in the Swedish way. There's nothing inherently more "groovy" about music made by people of African or South American or Southern European descent. They don't dance, cook or sing any better than anyone else.

ausf · #18 03-12-2010, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auriaprottu

I'd think the reluctance would come through in the playing. Why should it be done reluctantly? Why do them at all if you don't feel them to be necessary for the part?

I'd bet --and I mean NO insult here-- that you wouldn't mind having your pickups and electronics designed by a Swede. Why not give their music the same respect?

If you were reared by Swedes, then groove in the Swedish way. There's nothing inherently more "groovy" about music made by people of African or South American or Southern European descent. They don't dance, cook or sing any better than anyone else.

Substitute 'judiciously' for reluctantly.

The rest was (I thought obviously) a joke. I am extremely proud of my heritage, just commenting that there's was no 'funk' in my upbringing until I found it on my own.

RBrownBass · #19 03-12-2010, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ausf

Substitute 'judiciously' for reluctantly.

The rest was (I thought obviously) a joke. I am extremely proud of my heritage, just commenting that there's was no 'funk' in my upbringing until I found it on my own.

Ah- so perhaps subtlety is a Swedish trait

mambo4 · #20 03-12-2010, 02:10 PM

"groove" & "chops"= vague imprecise jargon.

I don't like discussing music in terms of vague ill-defined or circularly defined words.

If your chops don't grove, are they really chops?
If you have no chops, can you really groove?

If you reduced it to more precise terms the discussion might shed better light:
Is technical skill more important than playing with feel?

I submit they are two sides of the same coin. Certain amount of technical skill is required to play with feel, a certain amount of feel is required for a technique to be solid.

IMHO...