Guitarists can't learn my riffs?

My experience over the past year:

After a 20 year hiatus, I started playing bass again. That was about a year and a half ago. I got up to speed (at least IMO, for what it's worth) pretty quickly. Took a lot of lessons, bought books, lesson DVD's and CD's, do my best to learn theory (ADHD boy that I am), practice regularly in a very logical and consistent format, etc, etc. None of this is hard for me because I truly love music and love to play. (Don't ask me why I quit. I couldn't tell you.)

So I've been jamming with other musicians for about 8 months now. Trudging around the greater NYC area to rehearsal places, doing that routine some of you know all too well. And my experiences have been, well, kind of a let down.

The bottom line is that when I was a kid, the average hobby musician, or hobby musician trying to take the next step up, was just . . . better.

1) Almost EVERY guitar player I've played with, regardless of skill level, CANNOT seem to learn other people's riffs. When they CAN learn them, they need tabs or they need to actually watch how you finger the notes. Huh? Ever heard of ear/interval training? It's taken me literally three hours to teach shredder guitarists how to play an EASY 4 note riff. ???????? Have tabs ruined everyone's ability to transpose by ear? Could it be that I'm mostly a metal guy and metal musicians, with a few exceptions, are just poorly trained?

Not bragging here, believe me. But I can learn a simple riff after hearing it two times and working it out for myself - in a SNAP!! And after I've played something two or three times, I don't need to count measures, because I just develop an instinct for it. That's what was expected of musicians when I used to play in garages and basements when I was sixteen years old, for Pete's sake!!

2) Rhythm; many musicians I've played with, even ones who can totally shred on their own, have little sense of rhythym. That, or they CANNOT play music that is not with the genre(s) they normally play in. And these are people who gig regularly!!

When I was 12-14 years old - when I took lessons as a kid - things were REALLY traditional. I realize now how well that traditionalism has served me, even though I hated the lessons back then. I was a metalhead, but my teachers forced me to learn country, old-school R&B, etc etc. They scoffed at teaching me stuff like Iron Maiden, saying that I should learn that 'crap' on my own and not waste their time. I thought these guys were craggy old fools, but I realize now they were the BEST teachers ever!! They made me tap out tempos with my foot when I played, recognize time signatures just by listening, learn Rocco Prestia and Jamerson riffs in all positions in every key at tempo. It was brutal, but that brutality went a long way - even 20 years later!! I can't believe how quickly the vocabulary came back to me!

Like I said, it could be - and probably is - the people I'm playing with. If I stepped into a situation with real session players (I wouldn't dare at this point!) it would be a different story. But when a guy brags that he's been playing for 20 odd years, and needs to watch my neck when I'm teaching him a simople riff - AFTER he's listend to a sample on a WAV file ten times! - I'm starting to think that few people are learning things correctly or that people aren't even bothering to learn actual MUSIC anymore.

Anyways, I realize now that this is a rant. I don't mean to waste anyone's time. But THANK GOD for those craggy old fools. Ye have served me well!!

And BTW - what's with all the drop tuning crap? Drop tunings are fine, but shouldn't people learn how to play in traditional tunings first? They should pass a law that forbids musicians from playing in drop tunings unless they've been playing for five years minimum.

I just realized that I'm a craggy old fool. Damn!!

[Poor Tom]

It does sound like you're bragging just a little, even if it is unintentional. I can't figure out songs/riffs by ear, but I have played in bands/played shows/created/learned songs just fine. I'm only 22 so yeah maybe things were different when you were a kid, but in my experience most musicians my age are on 1 of two sides of the coin. Either they know music theory(which is me), or they can play by ear(but don't know the theory behind it). There aren't that many people around who can do it all, and I doubt there were as many as you seem to remember. Music is hard and it takes many many years of strict learning to get to a level you are talking about. To expect that of any and every musician you come by is pretty unreasonable.

all imo of course.

[nothumb]

yes on average people tend to be worse at ear training now because with tabs / youtube / etc they don't 'need' it as much. however it sounds like you're just playing with total incompetents, and generational differences are probably not the prime mover here.

[ThaLowEndTheory]

Lol! I have a bass, and I can play a few songs that I have figured out. I dare not call myself a musician. I refinish and "assemble" basses and guitars from parts all the time. I dare not call myself a builder or a luthier. I think to many people confuse learning a little bit about something with actually being something. It's just part of our society now. "I want it now, and show me the quickest short cut to get there". Unfortunately thats more the norm these days than the exception. I don't have your skills. I wish I did. I seriously need to take some lessons. For the most part I listen to cd's and try to figure it out myself. It's slow going though. I'm not a craggy old fool, but I have craggy old fool tendencies.

[Billnc]

As much as some people hate to admit it, there is nothing wrong with the traditional way music was taught. There are no short cuts, and I don't know anyone, who has ever completed a teacher's or school's course and said "Man I wish I never learned that stuff."

Another thing about the old days, and holds true today, I believe, is we expected each other to learn off of recordings before showing up for rehearsal. Now it's work cds. If you're not prepared, you're gone.

Believe me, I'm not bragging. There's tons of stuff I can't play. And my theory still sucks, despite the time I've spent on it. (Then again, I'm prety hard on myself.)

I guess it's just the feeling I get of, "Dude, I've played it and showed you like 50 times, and you still can't get it?" when I'm sitting there with a guitarist. Or telling someone, "It's kind of like a funk groove," and they have no idea how to play a funk groove - and yet they've been playing for 20 years. damn bro, get an Itunes account and listen to some music!!

Originally Posted by Poor Tom

It does sound like you're bragging just a little, even if it is unintentional. I can't figure out songs/riffs by ear, but I have played in bands/played shows/created/learned songs just fine. I'm only 22 so yeah maybe things were different when you were a kid, but in my experience most musicians my age are on 1 of two sides of the coin. Either they know music theory(which is me), or they can play by ear(but don't know the theory behind it). There aren't that many people around who can do it all, and I doubt there were as many as you seem to remember. Music is hard and it takes many many years of strict learning to get to a level you are talking about. To expect that of any and every musician you come by is pretty unreasonable.

all imo of course.

[bassandbeyond]

I think you're right....standards were simply higher 20 or 30 years ago. Of course, there have always been plenty of bad amateur players around, but at least in the past we all were exposed to relatively complex music on the radio. Songs with actual chord changes, bridges, intros, modulations, melodic solos, etc.

There's no way to say this without sounding like an old curmudgeon, but a lot of younger players today have never even been exposed to music with these elements, so how can we expect them to be good at picking that stuff up?

I said I was a metalhead as a kid, but when I jammed around with people (way back in the ancient early to mid 80's), we all used to play lots of different stuff together. Skynyrd, ACDC, Black Sabbath, old Judas Priest, James Gang, Hendrix, etc etc. It seems like now kids learn one genre (if they learn it at all) and that's it.

Originally Posted by bassandbeyond

There's no way to say this without sounding like an old curmudgeon, but a lot of younger players today have never even been exposed to music with these elements, so how can we expect them to be good at picking that stuff up?

[Poor Tom]

I think you might be right about that jhan. But I think most people don't need you to explain a riff and show it to them 50+ times in order for them to get it. Just keep looking for better people to play with, they are out there. I'm still looking for the right people to play with myself. It takes time.

[fender_funk_man]

I feel ya man... I have some patience but I have to like the guys I'm working with to gut it out. I strive to play with musicians who are better then I am so I can learn more. But at the same time simple ear training is sorely lacking. I'm a young musician (mid twenties playing for 6 years) but simple things like learning a 3 chord song seems to be above so many peoples heads. And dont get me started on people who cant read a lead sheet. Its depressing because I want to strive for more in my music but its so hard to find musicians that are willing to take a risk onstage and play outside there comfort zone.

As Duke Ellington said, "If my guys are not making mistakes then they are not trying hard enough."

[MarkTAW]

Shredder guitarists can't play rhythm to save their lives.

Whether you played during that time or not you have 20+ years experience on these kids. Why are you playing with them & not musicians at your level?

[unclejane]

Originally Posted by bassandbeyond

I think you're right....standards were simply higher 20 or 30 years ago. Of course, there have always been plenty of bad amateur players around, but at least in the past we all were exposed to relatively complex music on the radio. Songs with actual chord changes, bridges, intros, modulations, melodic solos, etc.

There's no way to say this without sounding like an old curmudgeon, but a lot of younger players today have never even been exposed to music with these elements, so how can we expect them to be good at picking that stuff up?

Nah. I'm also old and back in my early days the guitards were still just as bad as they are now.....

Just kidding.......

But seriously I don't get a sense that anything has changed. If someone has only learnt to play by ear, they're going to probably suck at learning through some other method. If they've only ever played other people's music by reading it and done very little improvisation, they're probably going to suck a bit at improv......

And hard music is hard to learn how to play, always has been and always will be.

That's how it's always been....

LS

[Swift713]

I have found that sometimes it's also motivation. A lot of guitar players can't seem to wrap their heads around learning anything from a bass player. We're supposed to learn their riffs not vice-verse, just like we're supposed to plug a Fender bass straight into an Ampeg and play eighth notes.

I've found the two things that you're talking about to be true also.

It has felt a lot of the time, to me, like most guitar players are self obsessed and can't listen for very long to something someone else wants them to play. They don't even realise it. You can spend hours learning their tunes, and then if you ask them to play something you've come up with they think you're being controlling. A lot of the time because they're so bad at learning other people's stuff, it means the only things the band can work on is what the guitarist has made up. Then the guitarist starts thinking 'I'm the only creative one around here - I write all the songs!' When the reality is, they're the bottleneck that limits everything the band does to what they can play. Maybe it's because they perceive some kind of lame pecking order, who knows.

The second point about rhythm is true also. I inherited a load of students, and it was weird, like the guy before me who was teaching them had sort of not mentioned that rhythm existed. They could play a lot of notes, but with absolutely no sense of time. It was really weird. I think it's easier to teach notes and scales and chords because they're visual, so lots of teachers just don't bother. You can explain stuff that's graphical and create value without pushing a student out of their comfort zone. When a student can't do a rhythm I think it makes them feel much more out of their depth, so lots of teacher avoid broaching rhythm because it's difficult for all concerned.

Ideas about how to teach rhythm - which is something I've had to find for myself actually, would be much appreciated. With guitarists that I'm teaching, most of them can't even strum up and down consistently and they've been playing for about 18 months in some cases.

When I was a kid, one of my old teachers made me put down my bass and tap out rhythyms with my hands and/or feet.

Latin music is GREAT for rhythym. A good excercise is to put on a salsa song, sit down with a conga or some bongos, or any percussion instrument, in fact, and see if you can do something with it. Much, much harder than it sounds and looks, at least to me!!

One of the things that helped(s) me the most is listening to different kinds of music. Metal, country, R&B, Latin, Jazz, whatever. Most young musicians who have crappy rhythym have it because they only listen to one kind of music.

Originally Posted by afromoose

I've found the two things that you're talking about to be true also.

It has felt a lot of the time, to me, like most guitar players are self obsessed and can't listen for very long to something someone else wants them to play. They don't even realise it. You can spend hours learning their tunes, and then if you ask them to play something you've come up with they think you're being controlling. A lot of the time because they're so bad at learning other people's stuff, it means the only things the band can work on is what the guitarist has made up. Then the guitarist starts thinking 'I'm the only creative one around here - I write all the songs!' When the reality is, they're the bottleneck that limits everything the band does to what they can play. Maybe it's because they perceive some kind of lame pecking order, who knows.

The second point about rhythm is true also. I inherited a load of students, and it was weird, like the guy before me who was teaching them had sort of not mentioned that rhythm existed. They could play a lot of notes, but with absolutely no sense of time. It was really weird. I think it's easier to teach notes and scales and chords because they're visual, so lots of teachers just don't bother. You can explain stuff that's graphical and create value without pushing a student out of their comfort zone. When a student can't do a rhythm I think it makes them feel much more out of their depth, so lots of teacher avoid broaching rhythm because it's difficult for all concerned.

Ideas about how to teach rhythm - which is something I've had to find for myself actually, would be much appreciated. With guitarists that I'm teaching, most of them can't even strum up and down consistently and they've been playing for about 18 months in some cases.

[MrTAteMyBalls]

yeah, i've given guitar lessons a few times to beginners, and teaching rhythm is VERY hard. I find it either comes naturally, or it doesn't. What I did was make it visual. First teach about basic 4/4 time signature, quarter notes, and quarter rests, basics of music reading.....then print something out showing a simple strum pattern with up/down strokes, and rests. It worked a couple of times....lol. Some just pick it up quicker. also, a lot of folks dont practice to a metronome.....i usually dont, but I've found it to be important even for a band. If a song is complex, playing even a few BPM too fast can cause problems.

Great Paul Gilbert video for teaching rhythym:

Paul Gilbert Rhythm lesson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCojcP_6AkI

BTw, I hate it when I spell rhythm wrong.

Good video - (by the way, I haven't had these students for 18 months, in case that's what it seemed like - I've only had them for a few weeks but they'd been playing with another teacher for that long).

There's a couple of things I've been getting the students to do to get a basis for the rhythm, a bit like in the video - I get them to tap their feet to every quarter note for simple stuff.

I also made a rhythm exercise (a bit like yours, MrTAteMyBalls), where they play up and down with the right hand, then finger a bar chord with the left and push it down on the notes of a 3:2 clave (sounds like the introduction to 'faith' by George Michael. Like you say, latin music leads into loads of other rhythms.

I think the metronome thing - I'm not sure about metronomes to be honest. I think it's a bit like learning to ride a bike with stabilisers. I prefer the foot tapping method because the body has a natural way of keeping a steady beat if it's grounded.

Originally Posted by afromoose

I think the metronome thing - I'm not sure about metronomes to be honest. I think it's a bit like learning to ride a bike with stabilisers. I prefer the foot tapping method because the body has a natural way of keeping a steady beat if it's grounded.

Agreed completely on that.