Harmonic notes

[bigd4207]

Can anyone explain this. Open D and G are two different notes. 7th fret G and 5th D are different notes. Why oh why do they have the same harmonics?!? I just can't understand it. Is it just the nature of harmonics or what?

[lemur821]

It's the nature of harmonics. They have absolutely nothing to do with the fret they fall over. Any relation is a complete coincidence. A harmonic's pitch is determined by the way you subdivide the string. When you put your finger on the fifth fret you're muting 1/4 of the way down the string (check it with a tape measure if you like), making a pitch two octaves up from the fundamental. When you mute 1/3 of the way down the G it's an octave and a fifth up. When you add a fourth to that (since D to G is a fourth) you get that same D a couple octaves up.

[Bassist4Life]

Each string has it's own set of harmonics. There are many pitches in the harmonic series on each string, but here are the primary pitches to keep it simple:

G string harmonics: G, B, D
D string harmonics: D, F#, A
A string harmonics: A, C#, E
E string harmonics: E, G#, B

Notice how the G & D strings both share the pitch "D".

That's what you're hearing.

Joe

[bigd4207]

Hmmm. Interesting. Makes sense kinda. It's just strange because you still go from open to two different spots down the strings. It just seems like it would be two notes difference from open like fretting them would. I'll have to play with harmonics a little more, but it's just weird to me, and I've been playing a while. Thanx for the reply.

[iplaybassguitar]

Originally Posted by Bassist4Life

Each string has it's own set of harmonics. There are many pitches in the harmonic series on each string, but here are the primary pitches to keep it simple:

G string harmonics: G, B, D
D string harmonics: D, F#, A
A string harmonics: A, C#, E
E string harmonics: E, G#, B

Notice how the G & D strings both share the pitch "D".

That's what you're hearing.

Joe

theres a lot more harmonics than what you named...you might wanna clear up youy post by also including what fret numbers those harmonics reside.

[Rattlehead]

Here's how I can best explain it:

When you play a harmonic what you are doing is actually subdividing the string into different parts that are vibrating.
So, when you play the most 'basic' harmonic, at the 12th fret, what you are doing is dividing the string into exactly two equal halves, and these two are vibrating. Since each half is exactly half as long as the total length of the string, they will make a note exactly twice as high (in Hz) as the open string.
When you play the harmonic at the 7th fret, as explained above, you divide the string into 3 equal parts. For this type of harmonic, there are actually two "dividing parts" so you can play this harmonic either one third of the way up the string, at the 7th fret, or two thirds up the string, at the 19th fret. Since each part is one third as long, the note will be three times as high (in Hz) as the open string, which actually makes it one octave and one fifth note higher.
And so on.
So the reason the 7th fret harmonic on the A string is the same as the 5th harmonic on the E string is that the 5th harmonic divides the string in 4 parts, so the note is exactly 4 times higher (in Hz) than the open note, giving an E. The 7th fret A string is 3 times as high, also giving an E.

Play around with harmonics between the 3rd and 5th frets; there are many there and they sound great.

Also whenever you play a fretted (or open non-harmonic) note, there are also harmonics ringing at the same time as the note you fretted (called the fundamental, as someone reminded me above). If you listen closely, you can hear them. To see this, you can test it. First play an open E, then place your finger at the 7th as you normally would to make a harmonic. Once your finger touches you'll hear that B harmonic. That B harmonic was actually ringing at the same time as the open E, but now you've muted the open E so you can hear the B harmonic better. Cool eh?

Well that's one hell of a rant, so I won't bother explaining how to make harmonics for fretted notes.

[lemur821]

Originally Posted by bigd4207

Hmmm. Interesting. Makes sense kinda. It's just strange because you still go from open to two different spots down the strings. It just seems like it would be two notes difference from open like fretting them would.

It is a little strange, but it makes sense when you understand how stopping a note and playing harmonics work.

When you stop a note you're literally changing the length of the string (or it's vibrating portion, to be specific). This changes its fundamental pitch, since a string's pitch is controlled by its length, tension, and mass.

When you play a harmonic you are not changing the length of the string, so the fundamental stays the same. You are simply holding it still at one or more points along its length. The whole thing can't vibrate any more, but it can vibrate in equal segments if you're holding the string still where two of those segments would meet (where there would be no vibration anyway). When you pluck the string you can't help but put some energy into these higher modes of vibration (although you can try -- compare plucking at the middle of the string to doing it by the bridge), which means that when you mute the lowest, the higher ones shine through.

EDIT: These two can be combined, of course. Fret a note and hold the string still 1/4 of the way down the new vibrating portion, and you'll get a note two octaves above the new fundamental. For all intents and purposes, a fretted note is the same as an open note on a shorter instrument.

Also, the idea of the harmonics being "two spots" apart is completely arbitrary. Harmony is all about ratios and not at all about counting. Each fret is just 94% closer to the bridge than the last, an arbitrary (and pretty stupid) number. We can't expect them to have any relationship to actual acoustical principles.

[Bassist4Life]

Originally Posted by iplaybassguitar

theres a lot more harmonics than what you named...you might wanna clear up youy post by also including what fret numbers those harmonics reside.

Yup, there are a several pitches in the harmonic series. I didn't want him to drown in TMI.

We can talk about the harmonic series until we're blue in the face, but real understanding is going to come from hands on experience.

A fingerboard chart with the harmonics on them is a good suggestion, but I hope it won't add to the confusion.



This diagram shows the location of the harmonics on any given string. In order to know the names of the pitches, you need to know about intervals (perfect 5th, major 3rd, major 7th). There are other diagrams on the internet that label each pitch, but I found this diagram first.

Joe

PS. If you go here:
http://www.studybass.com/tools/chord...-note-printer/
You'll find a website where you can select all different fingerboard configurations and print them out. Have fun.

[Bocete]

And, from all this, you find out that the frets are never in tune! They, infact, cannot BE in tune in every key, any number of tones per scale given..

If you want to know why, there's an explanation on wikipedia, look it up. The only fret in tune is the 12th, anyway. Interesting

[YogSothoth]

It's not a big mystery. Grab John Myung's Progressive Bass Concepts and he plays some wicked harmonics. If you'd care to do a google of bass harmonics I'm sure you'd find diagram of what notes are produced at each fret that has natural harmonics.

BASS HARMONICS CHART

String E A D G
Fret Note
2 A A D D
3.5 E A D G
3 E A G A
4 G# C# F# B
5 A A D G
6 E A D G
7 B E A D
8 E A D G
9 G# C# F# B
10 E A D G
11 E A D G
12 E A D G

I don't know if these are right or not.

[bigd4207]

So....Every fret does not have it's own harmonic? I know some of the frets are just harder to do, especially around the 12th - at least without getting the 12th harmonic sound. Near as I can tell you are saying the fret I play it on and the point that I mute it make the harmonic. But not every fret and mute point will make a harmonic? And from bassist's chart up there well, that just confuses the heck out of me. Why would you have a harmonic on either side of a fret? Just the fret/mute point coming into play? Thanks for the feedback.

[iplaybassguitar]

Originally Posted by Bocete

And, from all this, you find out that the frets are never in tune! They, infact, cannot BE in tune in every key, any number of tones per scale given..

If you want to know why, there's an explanation on wikipedia, look it up. The only fret in tune is the 12th, anyway. Interesting

WHAT?

[Jazz Ad]

Yep. Only one fret can really be accurate. All others are out of tune.

[bigd4207]

Originally Posted by iplaybassguitar

WHAT?

Use a tuner, you get a lot of sharps and flats over full notes.

[Jazz Ad]

Originally Posted by bigd4207

So....Every fret does not have it's own harmonic?

No. Harmonics have nothing to do with frets. They can match sometimes but it's not a given.
They come from slicing the string in equal vibrating parts. The places you find them on the neck are the nodes of each vibrating part.
Check this for further explanations.

[lemur821]

Originally Posted by bigd4207

Near as I can tell you are saying the fret I play it on and the point that I mute it make the harmonic.

That depends on what you mean by "play it on". If you're referring to the fret your finger happens to be near when you touch the string then it has nothing to do with the frets. You can optionally fret a note and shift all the harmonics on that string up, which is what I was referring to.

[Bassist4Life]

Bigd4207,

As I said early on, I didn't want to give you too much info. I had a huntch that one diagram was going to throw you a bit.

You need to grasp where the harmonics are on an open string. No, harmonics don't happen over each fret. Some come out clearer and louder than others. They come out really easy over frets 12, 7, and 5.

I don't know if you've ever seen a trumpet player play before, but they can get several different pitches without using their valves. They can blow the following ascending pitches: C, G, C, E, G, Bb, C without using any of the valves. This is part of the harmonic series.

On a 6-string bass you have a high-C string. It has the same harmonic series as the trumpet. Like people have said, it has nothing to do with frets. A trumpet has no frets. Right?

I'm just curious, how would you describe your knowledge of music theory? This could help us help you a little better. What is your experience with music and bass playing?

Joe

[Bassist4Life]

Stu Hamm playing a lot of harmonics in this video.

Joe

[bigd4207]

Originally Posted by Bassist4Life

Bigd4207,

What is your experience with music and bass playing?

Joe

As far as playing goes, I am self made. Everything I know I learned on my own. I don't know any chords or anything like that, I just play what I think sounds good. As far as harmonics go, I have played around with them a little, only one song I know actually uses them.

[Cloggy]

Originally Posted by lemur821

It's the nature of harmonics. They have absolutely nothing to do with the fret they fall over. Any relation is a complete coincidence. A harmonic's pitch is determined by the way you subdivide the string. When you put your finger on the fifth fret you're muting 1/4 of the way down the string (check it with a tape measure if you like), making a pitch two octaves up from the fundamental. When you mute 1/3 of the way down the G it's an octave and a fifth up. When you add a fourth to that (since D to G is a fourth) you get that same D a couple octaves up.

The frets are positioned in equal temper,so are not 100% acurate,but there is a relationship.
The 5th fret is at 0.2599210498948731647672106072766, not a quarter.
It's just the closest one.
The silly number that isn't quite a quarter is the equal tempered solution for the position of the note a fourth above the fundamental.

The 3rd harmonic (the interval of a fifth) is close to the fret cos its near a third of the string.
Only odd number divisions are 'new' notes.
The rest are octaves of an earlier odd number division.