help: five string basses and slapping

[Brad Johnson]

Originally posted by john turner


sounds to me like a physical problem with some fingers. i've been able to slap on a jerry jones baritone guitar. i guess skinny fingers come in handy (har har) some times.

It's always the bass players fault.

[pd_5string]

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


That's rubbish - to get the best sound you really need to pull under the strings - finger tip is not good enough! You must get a very poor sound doing this!

Besides I don't have any problems as I would never buy a bass like this and my own bass is fine for slap/pop - you can hear me on a recording if you like? Just click on "Member's MP3s"on the main forum page.

Although the graphic shows the 24th fret this is pretty close to where most sensible people would pop and the strings still don't widen out that much - we're still looking at 14-16mm string spacing and 19mm finger - even if it's close as Brad mentions, you are going to struggle!

Face it - you're just wrong!

Nah...you are...

Noone pops with the full width of their finger perpendicular to the strings. If you are, there isn't a bass in the world that would help you out. Wide string spacing is 19mm, so even that, according to you isn't big enough.

Most people pop with their fingers at an angle to the strings, and as such, your full 19mm need not have to fit.

I didn't listen to your mp3's, but I think that someone that needs to get their whole hand under the string to pop can't be very deft. Off to listen to your stuff though, I will check it out, but don't be crabby if I critique you.

[pd_5string]

Ok, we have the standard octave dom 7th stuff...

Have anything a little more intricate? (nice feel though)...

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


That's rubbish - to get the best sound you really need to pull under the strings - finger tip is not good enough! You must get a very poor sound doing this!

Besides I don't have any problems as I would never buy a bass like this and my own bass is fine for slap/pop - you can hear me on a recording if you like? Just click on "Member's MP3s"on the main forum page.

Although the graphic shows the 24th fret this is pretty close to where most sensible people would pop and the strings still don't widen out that much - we're still looking at 14-16mm string spacing and 19mm finger - even if it's close as Brad mentions, you are going to struggle!

Face it - you're just wrong!

[Brad Johnson]

Originally posted by pd_5string


Nah...you are...

Noone pops with the full width of their finger perpendicular to the strings. If you are, there isn't a bass in the world that would help you out. Wide string spacing is 19mm, so even that, according to you isn't big enough.

Most people pop with their fingers at an angle to the strings, and as such, your full 19mm need not have to fit.

I didn't listen to your mp3's, but I think that someone that needs to get their whole hand under the string to pop can't be very deft. Off to listen to your stuff though, I will check it out, but don't be crabby if I critique you.

Funny... I've seen how you react to criticism of your playing... it's not pretty

Even without using the full width of my fingers, some 5 string and up basses have spacing that is entirely too narrow for me. I do get my fingertips under the strings and on narrow spacing the cuticle gets ripped up from contact with the string above the one I'm popping, for example the G string when I pop on the D. I have no dexterity issues.

Anyone who can't believe that simple scenario just isn't trying. It's about as bright as saying that anyone who wears a size 10 shoe should be able to wear an 8. Simple physics.

BTW why wouldn't Bruce's 19mm fingers fit in a 19mm space? Bruce is right.

[toshiya]

thank you all for your replies, they've been a great help. Sorry for posting in the wrong forum however. I'm learning a bit with this bass, but it's slowly, sitting down I can slap, but standing up, ugh, anyways, off to practice I go!

[Brad Johnson]

Originally posted by toshiya
thank you all for your replies, they've been a great help. Sorry for posting in the wrong forum however. I'm learning a bit with this bass, but it's slowly, sitting down I can slap, but standing up, ugh, anyways, off to practice I go!

Try wearing your bass at the same height standing as sitting. Makes it a lot easier to play.

[pd_5string]

Originally posted by Brad Johnson


Funny... I've seen how you react to criticism of your playing... it's not pretty

Even without using the full width of my fingers, some 5 string and up basses have spacing that is entirely too narrow for me. I do get my fingertips under the strings and on narrow spacing the cuticle gets ripped up from contact with the string above the one I'm popping, for example the G string when I pop on the D. I have no dexterity issues.

Anyone who can't believe that simple scenario just isn't trying. It's about as bright as saying that anyone who wears a size 10 shoe should be able to wear an 8. Simple physics.

BTW why wouldn't Bruce's 19mm fingers fit in a 19mm space? Bruce is right.

Not many people criticize my playing Seriously, noone can ever fault me for not being "original" with how I slap. I don't take the usual approaches, and often combine slap, pop, double pop, double thump, strum, etc. I consider right hand technique a forte in my playing style (wish the left hand could catch up lol!!)

19mm is considered a wide spacing, and I guess you missed the part of my post where I said, that a person't finger may be 19mm wide, but a) we don't know where Bruce took this measurement (at the knuckle, at the tip, at the end of the nail, etc) and B noone ever pops with their thumb pointing directly up towards their face (the you would have a problem with thumping inadvertent strings) and their other fingers running parallel to the strings (which would make it also difficult to switch back and forth between slap style and finger style). I would sumbit that you need to be popping with with your THUMB running (almost) parallel to the strings such that the rest of your hand is at about a 45 degree angle to the strings. This would allow you to slide a 19mm thumb quite easily, at an angle, in between said strings (you don't have square fingers, it might be 19mm wide from edge to edge, but 14mm wide from nail to pad). If you want to do it bad enough, then you adapt. Besides, I am curious to know what bass that was in Bruce's recording, and it's string spacing.

It is a technique thing. Besides, I see plenty of HUGE guys slapping the crap out of 7 strings (Billy Dickens comes to mind). This thinking wuold also exclude a HUGE number of players from even considering slapping on a 6 string bass, which isn't the case either.

And if you still don't get this, a 19mm object WILL fit into a 19mm space. The shoe analogy doesnt hold water. Anyone that can't believe that a 19mm object can't fit into a 19mm space not only isn't trying, they don't want to see reality for whatever reason, and probably never did any woodwork either (but remember, if Bruce's finger is 19mm from edge to edge, it isn't 19mm from nail to pad...slapping is done with the hand at an angle, so this isn't even the issue).

[Brad Johnson]

Originally posted by pd_5string


Not many people criticize my playing Seriously, noone can ever fault me for not being "original" with how I slap. I don't take the usual approaches, and often combine slap, pop, double pop, double thump, strum, etc. I consider right hand technique a forte in my playing style (wish the left hand could catch up lol!!)

Some people just don't criticize others playing... it's called "class". If you seriously think what you're doing is somehow original, cool. No comment. If you think most people like it, again, cool. No comment

19mm is considered a wide spacing, and I guess you missed the part of my post where I said, that a person't finger may be 19mm wide, but a) we don't know where Bruce took this measurement (at the knuckle, at the tip, at the end of the nail, etc) and B noone ever pops with their thumb pointing directly up towards their face (the you would have a problem with thumping inadvertent strings) and their other fingers running parallel to the strings (which would make it also difficult to switch back and forth between slap style and finger style).

I don't think I'm the only one who missed this part of your post... I think you missed actually saying it.

I would sumbit that you need to be popping with with your THUMB running (almost) parallel to the strings such that the rest of your hand is at about a 45 degree angle to the strings. This would allow you to slide a 19mm thumb quite easily, at an angle, in between said strings (you don't have square fingers, it might be 19mm wide from edge to edge, but 14mm wide from nail to pad).

As usual, you overanalyze and completely miss the point. Surprise.

I don't pop with my thumb. I also am not restricted to keeping it parallel to the strings in order to pop the other strings. Sooner or later it may dawn on you that your technique is not the only "right way" to play... far from it. Be happy it works for you and quit trying to find these universal truths that aren't.


If you want to do it bad enough, then you adapt. Besides, I am curious to know what bass that was in Bruce's recording, and it's string spacing.

If you're smart and realize it's more comfortable to play with wider spacing, why adapt? Seriously, why not just play a more comfortable instrument that suits you, the individual? I don't like narrow spacing, I see no need to adapt and I'm happy with my instruments, so the problem is what?

It is a technique thing. Besides, I see plenty of HUGE guys slapping the crap out of 7 strings (Billy Dickens comes to mind). This thinking wuold also exclude a HUGE number of players from even considering slapping on a 6 string bass, which isn't the case either.

At least think about what you're saying. Why would it discourage anyone from playing a six? What is the string spacing on a six?



That's right, that's a dumb question... most people know that there "is" no standard string spacing for a six... or a five or seven or whatever, either. I don't like the standard Conklin 7 string spacing, it's too narrow "for me". What Bill Dickens likes is completely inconsequential. I play an MTD 6 and it's wider than the Conklin spacing... and wide enough for me.

Here's another pro to consider, Anthony Jackson. Try to convince him as to why he should adapt instead of playing something he likes. Dickens likes narrow spacing, possibly from playing early basses that tended to be quite narrow. Jackson had his basses made wider. Problem?

And if you still don't get this, a 19mm object WILL fit into a 19mm space. The shoe analogy doesnt hold water. Anyone that can't believe that a 19mm object can't fit into a 19mm space not only isn't trying, they don't want to see reality for whatever reason, and probably never did any woodwork either (but remember, if Bruce's finger is 19mm from edge to edge, it isn't 19mm from nail to pad...slapping is done with the hand at an angle, so this isn't even the issue).

The silly thing is, that's a very long and boring explanation that flies in the face of this simple statement that you made that I referred to:

"Wide string spacing is 19mm, so even that, according to you isn't big enough."

Apparently "you" don't get it.

"Reality" check: Bruce never said 19mm wasn't enough. That also makes this statement from you especially odd:

"Anyone that can't believe that a 19mm object can't fit into a 19mm space not only isn't trying, they don't want to see reality for whatever reason, and probably never did any woodwork either "

It's a fact...your "reality" is rarely based on the real thing. You really can't understand why someone might not like narrow spacing, can you? Is it really that complicated and mysterious?

[Brad Johnson]

Originally posted by john turner


sounds to me like a physical problem with some fingers. i've been able to slap on a jerry jones baritone guitar. i guess skinny fingers come in handy (har har) some times.

I can slap and pop on a Strat... wouldn't exactly be my first choice though

That would be something that is more comfortable.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Wow - I'm agreeing with Brad too much these days!!

Yeah I mean to me, it's just plain dumb to buy a bass that hinders your playing or are we talking about competitive sports here and not making music?

Something a bit more "intricate" - are we talking crochet or lace-making rather than holding down a groove .....frustrated or wannabee guitarists?

So as Brad says - most of the best pros get instruments that help them achieve what they want to do - to play something that hinders you is just masochism and there is just no reason.

OK - if you are a beginner with no knowledge about what is available and very little money, then I can see you might have to put up with whatever you can get.

But most people, after they have been playing a few years realise that there is a huge choice of basses out there and there is a reason for that - there are many ways to skin a cat - most things in music are personal preference and people are all different shapes.

So I had lessons with a very good pro Jazz player, but when we sat next to each other I could see that my hands are about twice the size of his - my fingers approximately twice as wide as his.

So why should we be playing the same instrument - it makes as much sense as saying we should be wearing the same shirt size!!

To argue against ths point is just plain stoopid!!

I still think that some people are missing the point that it is pretty easy to slap on anything - that is hit the strings with the edge of your thumb.

But all the way through this I have been very careful to point out that - to me the classic slap/pop requires you to get your popping finger under the strings and pull. If you can't do this then you are severely limiting your ability to affect the tone and dynamics of the popped note.

If you don't want to pull under the strings then fine - go with whatever you want - but to me pulling under the strings is a vital part of tone-shaping and dynamics and I use this as a way of making solos stand out, for example.

So if a song requires the classic slap/pop, then people want to hear that real "pop" of the strings being pulled and released to hit the board - if you don't do that you're just short-changing your audience - no matter how much you might say that "technically" I am playing slap/pop - I would feel cheated!!

[pd_5string]

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Wow - I'm agreeing with Brad too much these days!!

Yeah I mean to me, it's just plain dumb to buy a bass that hinders your playing or are we talking about competitive sports here and not making music?

Something a bit more "intricate" - are we talking crochet or lace-making rather than holding down a groove .....frustrated or wannabee guitarists?

So as Brad says - most of the best pros get instruments that help them achieve what they want to do - to play something that hinders you is just masochism and there is just no reason.

OK - if you are a beginner with no knowledge about what is available and very little money, then I can see you might have to put up with whatever you can get.

But most people, after they have been playing a few years realise that there is a huge choice of basses out there and there is a reason for that - there are many ways to skin a cat - most things in music are personal preference and people are all different shapes.

So I had lessons with a very good pro Jazz player, but when we sat next to each other I could see that my hands are about twice the size of his - my fingers approximately twice as wide as his.

So why should we be playing the same instrument - it makes as much sense as saying we should be wearing the same shirt size!!

To argue against ths point is just plain stoopid!!

I still think that some people are missing the point that it is pretty easy to slap on anything - that is hit the strings with the edge of your thumb.

But all the way through this I have been very careful to point out that - to me the classic slap/pop requires you to get your popping finger under the strings and pull. If you can't do this then you are severely limiting your ability to affect the tone and dynamics of the popped note.

If you don't want to pull under the strings then fine - go with whatever you want - but to me pulling under the strings is a vital part of tone-shaping and dynamics and I use this as a way of making solos stand out, for example.

So if a song requires the classic slap/pop, then people want to hear that real "pop" of the strings being pulled and released to hit the board - if you don't do that you're just short-changing your audience - no matter how much you might say that "technically" I am playing slap/pop - I would feel cheated!!

Wow, first Brad says it is all the player when I post about the benefits of Zons, and next he takes the opposite stance when it comes to string spacing. Ironically, string spacing whether it is 19mm or 17mm or 15mm makes no difference to my playing.

I see a trend.

Are there basses with wider than 19mm string spacing? What kind of bass is yours? Does it have wider than 19mm string spacing? Nowhere did you address that although you ahve a 19mm finger, it isn't square, nor do you approach the string with your nail on said finger facing the headstock. Your hand is at an angle, and as such, the actual width of your finger attempting to get under the strings is probably around 15mm.

ADDITIONALLY there is a little technique out there called "double thumping" I am sure you have heard of it? It requires you to get your THUMB under the strings, which is much bigger than your index. According to you, and Brad, I would be unable to get my thumb under the strings due to the fact that it is 2x wider than my index finger (much bigger than 19mm, and my Zons have something like 17mm string spacing)

It is technique...if you can't fit your huge fingers under the strings, angle your hand a little more.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally posted by pd_5string


ADDITIONALLY there is a little technique out there called "double thumping" I am sure you have heard of it? It requires you to get your THUMB under the strings, which is much bigger than your index. According to you, and Brad, I would be unable to get my thumb under the strings due to the fact that it is 2x wider than my index finger (much bigger than 19mm, and my Zons have something like 17mm string spacing)

It is technique...if you can't fit your huge fingers under the strings, angle your hand a little more.

Well don't bother to actually read what anybody is saying - just keep repeating your own mantra!!

I'm not talking about the thumb part - how many times do I have to say that - but the popping part and getting your finger under the strings and pulling.

Read the posts again!!

[punkfunkfreak]

you guys so friendly....lets make a circle. now hold hands.....

[pd_5string]

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


Well don't bother to actually read what anybody is saying - just keep repeating your own mantra!!

I'm not talking about the thumb part - how many times do I have to say that - but the popping part and getting your finger under the strings and pulling.

Read the posts again!!

You should undertand the technique of double thumping before you post.

It IS popping but with the thumb. It uses a down stroke AND an upstroke with the thumb, so the thumb goes UNDER the string to get the upstroke (and the pop). So according to you, since my thumb is so much bigger than my other fingers, I wouldn't be able to get it under the strings and actually pop them. For the incredibly literal minded, the analogy is:

-Thumb is bigger then index finger
-Thumb can still reach under strings and pop (not thump mind you, but actually pop UP under the strings)
-Therefore finger can do the same thing since it is much smaller

It is a technique thing, man.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally posted by pd_5string


Wow, first Brad says it is all the player when I post about the benefits of Zons, and next he takes the opposite stance when it comes to string spacing. Ironically, string spacing whether it is 19mm or 17mm or 15mm makes no difference to my playing.

It would be greatly appreciated if you could explain what the heck this means. Seriously. It's hardly ironic that spacing doesn't affect you. Maybe, to paraphrase you, we're more demanding players

I see a trend.

pd, you see all sorts of stuff

Are there basses with wider than 19mm string spacing? What kind of bass is yours? Does it have wider than 19mm string spacing? Nowhere did you address that although you ahve a 19mm finger, it isn't square, nor do you approach the string with your nail on said finger facing the headstock. Your hand is at an angle, and as such, the actual width of your finger attempting to get under the strings is probably around 15mm.

Yes, there are basses with more than 19mm spacing. You don't get out much, do you?

The detail you're willing to go through to prove a baseless point is awe-inspiring. Are you really this confused about this extremely simple concept?

ADDITIONALLY there is a little technique out there called "double thumping" I am sure you have heard of it? It requires you to get your THUMB under the strings, which is much bigger than your index. According to you, and Brad, I would be unable to get my thumb under the strings due to the fact that it is 2x wider than my index finger (much bigger than 19mm, and my Zons have something like 17mm string spacing)

Again with the quantum leaps... neither of us has told you what "you" can't do. OTOH you keep harping on what we "should" like. That's just silly.

Speaking of techniques, ever do a double pop? That's popping a doublestop, fairly simple thing to do. When I do it I start with index and middle finger folded over, between the strings. My fingers are parallel to the string. A quick flick of the wrist and you pop both strings... familiar with this?

On a bass that is too narrow, when I try to put my fingers between the strings, I'll rip up the sides of my fingers. Your "fix" is to modify my technique. Mine is to find a bass that better suits me. I guarantee I don't sound like you and I really don't see the point in modifying my playing, I'm very happy with it. They make narrow spacing for people who like it... and maybe people ignorant of the fact that there are other options.

Before you go on with more measurement nonsense, be aware that we aren't talking hard anges and micrometric measurements. I don't want zero clearance string space, I wants some room.

Then again I doubt you're actually reading any of this, instead, like a person who waits for a lull in the conversation to make their next "point" you're missing the other POV. It really is simple. Read the entire thread.

It is technique...if you can't fit your huge fingers under the strings, angle your hand a little more.

Or just buy a bass that fits. Apparently your tiny fingers like tight spacing. BTW the shoe analogy does work, otherwise we'd all be wearing the same size... with practice.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally posted by punkfunkfreak
you guys so friendly....lets make a circle. now hold hands.....

We can't... our huge man-hands wouldn't mesh with pd's

[Brad Johnson]

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Wow - I'm agreeing with Brad too much these days!!

I only disagree with you when I don't agree

This is the Day That TB Dreaded... the day that we would enjoin in battle against a common foe. The day when the sins of the father would be bourne on the son... the day when Dinosaurs ruled the Earth!!

Where's my coffee?

Yeah I mean to me, it's just plain dumb to buy a bass that hinders your playing or are we talking about competitive sports here and not making music?

In this case, my guess is sports. Claims will be made, mp3's requested, judging on a 10 point must system. Marquis de Miller rules.

Let's get it on!

[Yvon]

i know you two way too well, it will go on and on for days, I'm closing this one.