Help a girl playing bass without pain!

[MBIYF]

Hi guys, I'll try to explain this problem as clear as possible. It's rather difficult!

My girlfriend was diagnosed with hypermobility syndrome a few years ago. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypermobility
She was experiencing pain in both thumbs while playing bass and her doctor and specialist advised her to quit. So she did...

Recently she started playing bass again (which is quite awesome). She moved from pick to fingerstyle which kind of solves the problem of the thumb of her right hand. The thumb of her fretting hand is still restricting her playing somewhat as she vowed to stop playing when she feels pain coming up.

Let's look into her technique. Because the thumb is attached to the hand with a saddle joint, it is capable of a lot of movement. Naturally she overstretches her thumb like in this picture:



This causes her a lot of pain. She SHOULD have her thumb slightly bent like in this picture:



However, as you can see she's now overstretching the muscles in the palm of her hands. This is because she doesn't have enough strength in the top joint of her thumb.



All suggestions are welcome! But note: we've tried the obvious solutions... shortscale basses, strap length... etc. That's not it. There must be a way to force her thumb in the right position and it must be some sort of brace as taping a saddle joint is impossible.
Maybe there's a way to increase the strength of the top part for the thumb. A Powerball isn't helping much, but maybe there's a better 'toy' for this.
Going to a specialist is also out, he/she would advise her to quit again.

I thing we haven't tried is trying out a MTD or Tobias bass. Maybe an assymetric neck could force her thumb in a more natural position.

All sugestions are welcome!

Greetings from The Netherlands,

Haico

[Hawaii Islander]

You might have her talk with an orthopedic specialist about lightweight thumb brace. It would be similar to an elastic elbow or knee support band that stretches while still giving extra support to keep the thumb from hyper-extending. An orthopedic specialist should be able to come up with an inexpensive and effective solution.

[Deacon_Blues]

None of the hand positions on the pics look healthy to me. It looks like there's a lot of tension in the thumb, the wrist and the fingers in both.

The hand must feel relaxed to avoid injuries. For a moment, forget about one finger per fret and similar things requiring stretching, and focus instead on finding a good, relaxed right hand position with the fingers laying comfortably next to each other. Try pressing down a C on the A string with the index, and rest the other fingers comfortably next to it. Try keeping the thumb rather straight in a natural position, and somewhere between the index and middle finger. DON'T press too hard! Pressing down a string shouldn't require much force, but if it does, check the setup. A low action (string height) is good to minimize the force needed to press down the strings.

Try also to fret a note without using the thumb to support it. You can hold the bass body in place with your right hand when trying this. Don't let the thumb touch the neck.

About fretting, I find it most efficient to press more with the tip of the finger that with the pad. I think I'm pressing down the strings with the last finger joint in an angle of about 45° relative to the neck of the bass, like:

      _____     |       \
     //    \    |        |
    //      | O |        |
   /       /    |        |
  /       /     |        |
 /       /      |        |
 |       |    O |        |
 |       |      |        |

Above, the angle between the last finger joint and the neck is lower than 45°, but the point is to press more with the tip than with the pad.

Hope this is of any help.

[lmfreeman9]

Originally Posted by Deacon_Blues

None of the hand positions on the pics look healthy to me. It looks like there's a lot of tension in the thumb, the wrist and the fingers in both.

The hand must feel relaxed to avoid injuries. For a moment, forget about one finger per fret and similar things requiring stretching, and focus instead on finding a good, relaxed right hand position with the fingers laying comfortably next to each other. Try pressing down a C on the A string with the index, and rest the other fingers comfortably next to it. Try keeping the thumb rather straight in a natural position, and somewhere between the index and middle finger. DON'T press too hard! Pressing down a string shouldn't require much force, but if it does, check the setup. A low action (string height) is good to minimize the force needed to press down the strings.

Try also to fret a note without using the thumb to support it. You can hold the bass body in place with your right hand when trying this. Don't let the thumb touch the neck.

About fretting, I find it most efficient to press more with the tip of the finger that with the pad. I think I'm pressing down the strings with the last finger joint in an angle of about 45° relative to the neck of the bass, like:

      _____     |       \
     //    \    |        |
    //      | O |        |
   /       /    |        |
  /       /     |        |
 /       /      |        |
 |       |    O |        |
 |       |      |        |

Above, the angle between the last finger joint and the neck is lower than 45°, but the point is to press more with the tip than with the pad.

Hope this is of any help.

+1 I had the same problems with both thumbs until I learned to relax.

[arctan]

Look up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_technique

>Some< of the practitioners are very into what musicians do with their hands and bodies.
E.g.
http://www.janegregory.org.uk/musicians.html

Get a bass with a thin neck. Both across the strings >and<
from front to back. Try an Ibanez SR500 (or 300 or 700- any SR4 neck profile), or an Ibanez EDB 700 (or 550). ( I wish I'd got one first...)

Get to know a >good< aromatherapist who will make up some oil or cream to help. ( And massage is a nice thing anyway...)

Best of luck.

[JAUQO III-X]

One thing she can do is not use her thumb at all, or develop a balance between using it and not using it.

she can give the use of her thumb a break by not using it once she gets past the 10th fret on up(just to create a sense of balance while giving her thumb and thumb area a rest).

A thin neck will also help during this application.

I'm only speaking from my some times none thumb use experience.

And she can use a lighter gauge set of strings, this usually helps take the high tension feel away, that can some times cause hand problems.

[BuffaloBass]

Does it help if she plays wrong and hooks her thumb around the back of the neck? I know its VERBOTEN, but.....

[Mr M]

Originally Posted by MBIYF

Hi guys, I'll try to explain this problem as clear as possible. It's rather difficult!

My girlfriend was diagnosed with hypermobility syndrome a few years ago. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypermobility
She was experiencing pain in both thumbs while playing bass and her doctor and specialist advised her to quit. So she did...

I have hypermobility (double-jointed), so did Jaco (cough cough ). My thumb looks exactly the same as the first picture but luckily I don't feel any pain.
One thing that may helping me is to hold the neck as Steve Harris is doing, whenever I can. What he does? Holding the back of the neck with all his palm while keeping his fingers together parallel to the fretboard. But he does this (so do I) when he is playing one note repetitively for a while (triplets, pedaling the chord etc.). I can't use this when e.g. playing a chromatic exercise.
This give me a relax time between "one finger per fret parts" (and maybe why my hand automatically goes to Steve Harris style whenever it can, because it hurts or maybe I am just a die-hard Steve Harris fan trying to find a reason ). Maybe you can try this "un-proper technique"

You may also immobilize (brace) the thumb joint with a custom support plaster. But this is just a guess, so please check this with an orthopedist.

In TB, I remember seeing some threads about not using the thumb as the back anchor and playing only with four fingers (while keeping the thumb in its position just not touching the back of the neck). This was suggested for increasing the speed and pointing that the thumb should only be a guide and should not support the fretting fingers. The fretting fingers should be capable of playing without the need of an anchor which is seen a slowing fact. Maybe she can try this as well. I tried a while, it puts more stress on the fretting fingers but the thumb was stress-free.

Hope it helps a little.

[powerbass]

As a massage therapist and beginner bass player I can really appreciate this issue. Hypermobility is very difficult to treat - healthy joints need a certain amount of stiffness which is related to ligament/connective tissue stiffness as well as muscle strength. Without this stiffness joints/ligaments will undergo significant stresses because they can no longer be held in their relative neutral position. There is very little that can be done to correct genetic connective tissue conditions. Bracing is helpful though it can just end up transferring the pressure/stress to other joints. I would do some research on prolotherapy (http://www.prolotherapy.com). This entails injecting ligaments/connective tissue w/a sugar solution that creates an inflammatory reaction, this triggers a repair process to damaged (loose) ligaments thereby stiffening them. A specific strength and conditioning exercise program that targets the whole upper body including her shoulders,arms,forearms,hands and fingers will help keep her joints in a more neutral position and give her more strength and endurance which is necessary- without good ligament support muscles need to take over the role of joint support. The exercise routine needs to be carefully undertaken initially because it may make matters worse. exercise + bass playing = more pain. I took up bass playing 2 years ago and my fingers/thumb hurt from hyperextension. I had poor technique which was corrected w/a good teacher strict on hand position. I started playing on a Fender Jazz bass. I actually hated it because the neck was so heavy (neck dive) I could never find a comfortable position which I think contributed to the hand/wrist pain. So I ended up making my own bass incorporating these modifications: very light body, ultralight tuners w/compact head stock or headless design, super light gauge strings and low action, you have already tried the short scale. She needs to be able to play as lightly as possible, pressing w/the finger tips, the thumb should have very little pressure against the neck. It's all about technique: light pressure good upper body alignment, relaxed breathing. practice, practice. Check out these ergonomic sites. Check out the the Torzal Bass!
http://ergonomics.about.com/od/music...omusicians.htm
http://buildingtheergonomicguitar.co...tric-bass.html

[ric1312]

How much pressure is she using on her fretting fingers and on her supporting thump? Most people when they start out use way to much because they are trying to make up for lack of ititial dexderity and speed on the bass.

When I first started out I did a common thing of too much pressure, which even without a condition, gave me a lot of ache in my thumb.

My solution was to practice with the lightest touch possible, and to practice relaxing my thumb to the point where it wasn't even on the kneck or barely touching. Also check the action on her bass and make sure it is nice and low so it's easy to fret the string with a light touch. This will make it a lot easier to play.

Also, tell her to slow down her playing and play with the lightest touch she can with here thumb and fretting fingers and still get a tone..... just do some basic scales until she has those down with the easiest, lightest touch possible. It should be almost as easy as simply waving your fingers in the air.

[MBIYF]

GREAT information and tips all around! I was already hoping from reactions of players with the same problems. Thanks!

As for now she likes my Ibanez Roadstar RB850 the best. As a predecessor of the Soundgear series it has a tiny body and a comfortable neck. It's currently strung with a steel set of 40-100. I'm thinking about a 35-95 set of nickels and have it profesionally set up for these tiny stings.

Thanks guys, please keep 'em coming! We'll look into every option next time this comes up. This should be soon, I'm teaching her to play Halo of Flies by Alice Cooper. How cool is that?!

[Mr.Phil]

If she uses the 124 fingering method, she really shouldn't have to apply much pressure with her left thumb and at the same time, she won't be stretching her palm muscles as much. Try to have her practice fretting notes with the least amount of thumb pressure required. Good luck.

[MarkTAW]

+1 "124 fingering method" - I'm assuming that's the technique, borrowed from upright bass, where you lock your ring & pinky fingers together as if they were one finger. That's how I play. That spread in those pictures looks way too wide to me - why is she trying to stretch across so many frets like that? I rarely play more than 2 frets apart. Index finger on C (3rd fret A string) and ring+pinky on D (5th fret A string).

Also, I can't see the strings, but make sure the action is nice & low so she doesn't have to apply much pressure to push the strings down.

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by JAUQO III-X

One thing she can do is not use her thumb at all, or develop a balance between using it and not using it.

she can give the use of her thumb a break by not using it once she gets past the 10th fret on up(just to create a sense of balance while giving her thumb and thumb area a rest).

+1. I posted some pictures a couple of months back of what it looks like to play electric bass without your thumb on the neck. For the most part my thumb just glides along but there is very little pressure on it. My fingers and shoulder pull the bass back against my body.

A lot of that technique comes from practicing double bass standing up and leaning forward slightly to let the weight of the bass help stop the notes. It gives your left arm much more mobility.

[lamonica78]

You might want to check this out http://www.littleguitarworks.com/torzal/

They manufacture a bass with a 'twisted' neck that supposedly makes it extremely ergonomic and comfortable. May be just what she needs! Hell, you might even be able to write it off on insurance for health purposes. At the very least, you can deduct it on your taxes next year!

Good luck to her. I would hate to be in that situation and hope she is able to overcome her pain

[JazznFunk]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

+1. I posted some pictures a couple of months back of what it looks like to play electric bass without your thumb on the neck. For the most part my thumb just glides along but there is very little pressure on it. My fingers and shoulder pull the bass back against my body.

A lot of that technique comes from practicing double bass standing up and leaning forward slightly to let the weight of the bass help stop the notes. It gives your left arm much more mobility.

I second this notion... my years of playing upright bass and consciously pulling from the arm/shoulder instead of the thumb drastically changed my electric technique. I primarily use Streicher technique on upright as well, which is more kind to the thumb. I have always used light gauge strings as well on electric, and synthetic core strings on upright (Kolstein Heritage or Obligato). I find that a lot of people start off on really high tension strings because they don't know any better and ruin their hands/technique as a result. You can get a great tone out of lighter tension strings with proper setup and technique... and save yourself pain down the road. The string comment is subjective I know, but the bit about technique is definitely well-accepted theory and practice.

[Vandelay]

I also have double-jointed thumbs, and your pictures look a LOT like my playing. I don't have pain, so I can't completely address the issue. But as others have suggested, ask a tech to give the bass a decent setup, preferably with low action, so she doesn't have to press hard to fret the note. Or if you're looking at other basses, you might look at a short scale basses, since those often have more "loose" feeling strings.

[nsmar4211]

My thumb looks like the top picture No probs with pain, didn't notice until recently that it wasn't "normal". Seems just about every good player I know has the hitchhikers thumb (there was a thread around here....)

I find that a 5 string is more comfy to play due to the wider neck. I can't stand "baseball bat" necks, they hurt my hands. I play on a Peavey and an Ibanez 5, no probs with hurting hands. Take her to the bass store and have her try out different necks.

And she doesn't *have* to stretch like that, she'll hurt her fingers if it's too much. It also looks to me like maybe she needs to relax her arm, that angle is funny (or is it just for the camera?). I looked at my hand, and if you were to make the "jabber jabber jabber" puppet motion with your hand, that's the position of my fingers relative to each other.. (course, fingers are parallel with the fretboard)... I also have the joint of the thumb in contact with the neck instead of the pad part (more thumb on neck)...

I find that I end up using my pinky for things my third finger 'ought' to be doing anytime I'm within 5 frets of the headstock. But....I can play 4 hour gigs without a sore left hand. No one is going to shoot her if she doesn't use the exact fingers every time.

[My A is Fatter]

I've been having problems with pain, too...but I have pain in my wrist. I really think it's because I'm still stiff when I play (I'm a beginner at bass), but I'm going to try some of the suggestions I've found here, like practicing slower with a lighter touch and see how that works for me.

[fdeck]

Originally Posted by JazznFunk

I second this notion... my years of playing upright bass and consciously pulling from the arm/shoulder instead of the thumb drastically changed my electric technique.

I third this notion. I learned it starting out on 'cello. When I started to play electric bass, I wanted to use the same technique. A couple things help. First, shorten the strap so the bass is higher up. This lets you have a straighter wrist. Second, play sitting down until you can play without pain. The right arm over the body of the bass helps stabilize it, so you are not using your left thumb for that job.