Help - my fingers bend backwards!

[PhoenixHope]

I *just* started playing bass, and I find that the flexibility in my fingers is making things a little difficult. My fingers can bend backwards (about 45 degree angles) at both knuckles. But when I try to press down frets, that last knuckle bends and often I end up pressing on another string by accident. Look at this guitar player's index finger to see what I mean:



He's using it to his advantage because he *wants* to hold down multiple strings at once. I haven't needed to do that (do bassists do much of that anyway?). All it does is make it difficult to isolate strings.

Do any of you have the same problem? And have some advice maybe?

Many thanks!

[Arranger]

Originally Posted by PhoenixHope

I *just* started playing bass, and I find that the flexibility in my fingers is making things a little difficult. My fingers can bend backwards (about 45 degree angles) at both knuckles. But when I try to press down frets, that last knuckle bends and often I end up pressing on another string by accident. Look at this guitar player's index finger to see what I mean:



He's using it to his advantage because he *wants* to hold down multiple strings at once. I haven't needed to do that (do bassists do much of that anyway?). All it does is make it difficult to isolate strings.

Do any of you have the same problem? And have some advice maybe?

Many thanks!

If this is your first experience playing a fretted instrument, I'm imagining that you simply haven't built up the strength to keep your fingers in better control. Time ought to improve your situation.

[JimmyM]

you have to make a concentrated effort not to do that. always be thinking about it until it becomes second nature.

[standupright]

you're pressing too hard. work on playing lighter with your fretting hand. it takes work and practice.

[EricF]

Originally Posted by Arranger

If this is your first experience playing a fretted instrument, I'm imagining that you simply haven't built up the strength to keep your fingers in better control. Time ought to improve your situation.

Originally Posted by JimmyM

you have to make a concentrated effort not to do that. always be thinking about it until it becomes second nature.

Originally Posted by standupright

you're pressing too hard. work on playing lighter with your fretting hand. it takes work and practice.

All of these.

It's a technique and strength issue. Proper practice will give you the tools you need.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by PhoenixHope

I *just* started playing bass, and I find that the flexibility in my fingers is making things a little difficult. My fingers can bend backwards (about 45 degree angles) at both knuckles. But when I try to press down frets, that last knuckle bends and often I end up pressing on another string by accident. Look at this guitar player's index finger to see what I mean:



He's using it to his advantage because he *wants* to hold down multiple strings at once. I haven't needed to do that (do bassists do much of that anyway?). All it does is make it difficult to isolate strings.

Do any of you have the same problem? And have some advice maybe?

Many thanks!

In this picture we have what we call joint miss- alignment, especially radial side of the hand (the thumb side). This is a two fold thing. The postion of the hand is facilitating this, as the knuckles are in front of the fretboard so the finger joints are being used on their sides rather than direct in a line because the tips are being used. That means the loading of pressure/force is not being transferred correctly as the joint was designed for(through the joints) but rather over or past the joints. The wrist position also does not help the loading as the angle look to acute (bent) to support the loads as the elbow is forward. ( this is just a still picture so no real conclussion can be drawn )

So in pulling the elbow back, that will cause a straightning of the wrist, the knuckles will drop lower and move to the front of the neck, maybe slightly under under. This will lower the fingers so that the first set of joints after the knuckle will be in front of the fretboard (maybe even allow the edge of the fretboard to touch them). This will now mean that the finger joints will have to curl to access the strings, so now loading will go through the joints not past or over them. The advantage of this is that all joints have in line movements and can spread any load through all, not just the point of load.

So why the radial side collapse, simple the radial side ( thumb, forefinger and middlefinger) is for dexterity of movement, the ulnar side is for power in movement. That is why most players find it hard to develop finger styles/fretting that involve the unar side, it is not wired for that type of movement, where as the radial side is. But i can be learned if need be ( all walks of life have it ), so consider it a "higher" use of the hand that we adapt to cover what we want to do.

I always remind players we are not designed to play instruments, so look after your hands they are worth more than just for playing, they help define you as a person.

[PhoenixHope]

Thanks everyone!

So I realized after asking and poking around that I did have kind of a death grip on the neck, with my palm pressed against it and my wrist bent. And, I was pressing harder than I need to to compensate for a lack of precision (like if I landed too far behind the fret). So I practiced playing without touching the back of the neck, and I started doing scales so I could get better muscle memory and press right before the frets more consistently.

What's interesting is that someone showed me a video of a bass player who uses the bending backwards in his playing. What do you guys think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTd19BqB8BE

(ps - is there any way to embed a video here?)

[omnimutant]

I think playing a bass with a thinner neck will help too so you can keep your palm more on the Underside of the neck pushing the back of the neck with your thumb to keep it steady, instead of below and inline with it. This would force you to use the pads of your fingers instead of the tips which should fix your problem I think. Also yea practice and the strengthening will help a lot.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by PhoenixHope

Thanks everyone!

So I realized after asking and poking around that I did have kind of a death grip on the neck, with my palm pressed against it and my wrist bent. And, I was pressing harder than I need to to compensate for a lack of precision (like if I landed too far behind the fret). So I practiced playing without touching the back of the neck, and I started doing scales so I could get better muscle memory and press right before the frets more consistently.

What's interesting is that someone showed me a video of a bass player who uses the bending backwards in his playing. What do you guys think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTd19BqB8BE

(ps - is there any way to embed a video here?)

Trust me you are not Billy, so don't model yourself on him unless you have the physical capabilities of Billy and the time and resources to play in such a way. Also Billy does it for a reason, with control, as part of his technique with his right hand finger style, which is different to having pressure issues in the fretting hand.

[kr0n]

EricF summed it up real nice.

Pressure roll is a technique that takes advantage of flatted fingers. Is very useful when you're moving to higher strings on the same fret. Basically, you keep the pad of your finger on the fret you start, let's assume its 5th fret of E string (A) and you need to move up in fourths to D and to G so you roll your finger (keeping your pad on the E string) and press D on A string and G on D string with your knuckles in that finger, be it index, middle, ring or pinky.

But when you're playing the D you should raise the finger so you're not pressing it down on E (unless you want to of course but practice muting the string as well).

[Chris K]

No offense meant of course, but I disagree to what Fergie F writes (if I understood everything correctly). First of all: find a teacher! Wrong techniques may cause damage to your body. As you already discovered a specific problem, it is dangerous to teach yourself.

The wrist should be OUT and pretty straight, so the elbow is kept to the front as far as relaxed posture permits. This implies wearing the bass rather high. Play with your FINGERTIPS, not the pads.

An excellent tutorial:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeRoQuXlj9w

Your specific problem: If you play with your fingertips, the joints wil be kept bent INWARD, so they can hardly bend the other way. Fingertips are harder than fingerpads, so after growing some callus you will get the tone easily. Don't really squeeze the neck. Have the action of your bass checked by a teacher or a luthier. If necessary, use lighter strings.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by Chris K

No offense meant of course, but I disagree to what Fergie F writes (if I understood everything correctly). First of all: find a teacher! Wrong techniques may cause damage to your body. As you already discovered a specific problem, it is dangerous to teach yourself.

The wrist should be OUT and pretty straight, so the elbow is kept to the front as far as relaxed posture permits. This implies wearing the bass rather high. Play with your FINGERTIPS, not the pads.

An excellent tutorial:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeRoQuXlj9w

Your specific problem: If you play with your fingertips, the joints wil be kept bent INWARD, so they can hardly bend the other way. Fingertips are harder than fingerpads, so after growing some callus you will get the tone easily. Don't really squeeze the neck. Have the action of your bass checked by a teacher or a luthier. If necessary, use lighter strings.

No offence Chris and great points made i agree with if the bass is held high, but not so good if it is low. Since the side i offered is a general rule of thumb on the mechanics of joints, the variable are many in what a player seeks to do.

If the wrist is to far forward the mechanics do not work, regardless of height, yes the fingertips may curl and the string fretted, but the loading is still not stable, or as stable as it could be if the wrist is held back. It also brings in the elbow and so that means the shoulder has to be involved.
So with limited information about the OPs style it as about keeping the wrist straighter, the joints in line, and let the fingers apply the pressure correctly from the forearm not from the thumb.

Think in playing a piano......this is not a problem because the thumb is not involved in gripping, but playing and the wrists are straight and the natural curl of the hand and fingers used correctly.
It is the arms that control the height to the piano and because no thumb is using a gripping action ( this gripping is an un-intentional thing by the way) the pressures and strains are greatly reduced.
I can't remember many converations about piano heights, but those i do were all about setting the stool so the sholders are down (relaxed) and the forearms controled from the elbow, so the wrists hands and fingers have the best of movement afforded to them with the least of effort.
Bass playing should apply the same principals when ever they are afforded to it.

[PhoenixHope]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

Trust me you are not Billy, so don't model yourself on him unless you have the physical capabilities of Billy and the time and resources to play in such a way. Also Billy does it for a reason, with control, as part of his technique with his right hand finger style, which is different to having pressure issues in the fretting hand.

Yeah, I know. I just thought it was cool. And nice to feel like my finger flexibility doesn't HAVE to be a handicap.