How to get the most "upright-ish" sound out of an electric?

[halloweenfiend]

Hello all,

I have always enjoyed the sound of an URB played pizzicato (think Jazz style). And I have been thinking about how I could emulate an upright-ish sound with my Precision bass. Now I kno using flatwound strings can help a lot, but I am looking at this from a wider perspective. Thinking about amp EQ, right hand technique, and mayb some kind of foam mute. Well I just wanted to throw this idea out there and hear some opinions on what might be necessary steps to copping that URB sound on a Precision bass.

-Jon

[Tehrin Cole]

I'm an electric bassist who does Jazz gigs all of time,and I can tell you that,it would help an awful lot if,your bass was fretless.I play a fretless Jazz Bass,and what I try to do is not-so-much,get my instrument to "sound"like an upright,as-much-as getting it to "feel"like an upright,...that sensation of"moving air".I achieve this by first,setting up my bass to favor more of the bridge pick-up,than the neck pick-up(ala,Jaco)This in my opinion,gives me the greatest articulation,where playing Jazz is concerned.I use the midrange from my amp,to highlight that articulation(this give the instrument its"voice",as well as punch).I then adjust my bass,and treble,for taste.Technique-wise,I adjust my hands accordingly,to get the effect that I need.If I'm playing fast,taking a solo,or just swinging in general,I'll tend to play closer to the bridge.For ballads,and if I really want the instrument to swell,I'll play closer to the neck.This what I do,and hopefully this may help you,as well.Explore it,...you'll find your way! Peace!

[Jim Carr]

Flats, playing over the 20th frets, fretless, adding a mute if you want, EQ, etc., ALL, IMHO don't do it.

My sincere suggestions:

1) Before you can get an upright sound, you need to honestly understand what it is. I suggest listening to Paul Chambers, Scott LaFaro, Ray Brown, and Charles Mingus a great deal, if you have not done so.

2) At the same time, own and learn to play a reasonably good double bass, n.b., pizz AND arco.

3) With a clear tone ideal now in mind, and solid idea of what the expressive world of the double bass is, then try the 20th fret pluck (or fretless), flats, mutes, EQ, etc. Realize that it FAILS.

4) Buy a bigger car and haul the upright kinowing there is no substitute, except maybe a Rob Allen with an ebony fingerboard. They come closest of all those I have heard or played. Not the same or very close, but closest.

I am serious.

[FenderP]

I agree with Jim, although I have to say my Takamine TB-10 cops a touch more of an upright sound than the Rob Allen Deep 4 I have I would say largely due to the bigger chamber in the body. But you can't beat a Rob Allen (any of 'em) for what they give you in terms of size and weight. The TB-10 can be a pain to schlep (but easier than a real double bass).

The guys I play jazz with lately have heard these two plus my '76 maple fretless P and don't complain about any of 'em (I've had compliments on all three, but I'd like to think some of that is my playing), although they did notice the difference between the RA and the Takamine sound-wise.

[lunarpollen]

It all depends on the kind of jazz pizzicato sound you are going for. Like Jim Carr above says, you are not going to get a comprehensive upright tone out of your bass. But for certain styles of jazz, you can get come close, like if you are just trying to get a generic late 1930's four-beat muted thumping swing style. But you will never be able to emulate the much more complicated, expressive, and complex upright tones associated with famous jazz bassists such as those Jim listed above

[jefkritz]

you can get a pretty okay db sound if you palm mute (rest the side of your palm across the strings just in front of the bridge) and pluck with your thumb.

moving your palm closer or farther from the bridge gives more volume or more thump, respectively

[FenderP]

Some of it also has to do with your fingerstyle technique. I have always had a good jazz sound without a lot of muting. I tend to play with one finger (or one finger reinforced) and with a claw, and when playing jazz, hit the string more with the sides of my fingers than attack it like you would if you were playing rock. Playing closer to the neck helps as well.

Then again, I've been playing jazz pretty much from day one of when I started to play bass. I've had awhile to work on my own style

A good example of how to sound good is Jimmy Haslip who playes a fretted bass, but it's all in how he plays it when he swings.

[Chad Michael]

My Lightwave fretless (optical with piezo) sounds somewhat "upright - ish" when I want it to.

I don't think I've ever played a:

1) fretted, or
2) magnetic pickup bass

of any sort that came anywhere near the sound of a DB. YMMV

[lunarpollen]

For a nice thumpy sound, I use some adhesive of the type sold as "Blu-Tack", I squish it over the strings right in front of the bridge. Flatwounds help, as does a nice touch with your plucking fingers, and pluck over the neck near the end of the fretboard. And use only one pickup. I find a neck pickup is best, myself. I'll also dial in a bunch of high mids on my amp, but the EQ settings that work for this will depend a lot on the cabinet(s) you're using. I also find short-scale basses are better for this than long-scale. Has something to do with the way the notes decay.

[Funkyvlad]

This is my first post besides the "welcome topic", so hello to all.

I'm not much into jazz playing and double bass playing as well. But when put into a situation of playing jazzy stuff I try to follow these rules:

-play relatively close to the neck
-play to imitate the punch and attack of double bass - so play with fast attack - plucking fingers should not stay too long on a string

the effect is somewhat like this (fretted Fender Jazz, round strings, treble pot closed, balance set slightly to the bridge pickup, all into the Sadowsky DI with basses on 13')

http://www.myspace.com/wladekfoltynski (second song on the profile)

but:

the closest sound to the double bass I've ever heard on bass guitar was - due to the player and the instrument - Takamine fretless acoustic (B10 or 20)- perfect instrument.

here's the link to the band:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ht_nUymbst4

worth to consider, huh?

greetings

Wladek

[SteveC]

I am playing jazz gigs on an active, fretted bass with DR Highbeams. As important as the physical things are - pickup selection, eq, technique - you also need to have the sound in your head and be "thinking" like an upright player. No one tells me to get a fretless or upright or whatever., and I haven't (to my knowledge) lost gigs because of it. I interpret the OP's question to be "I have this bass and I want to sound as much as I can like an upright so what do I do with what have right now."

There are ways to get "the essence" of an upright into your playing without switching strings, basses, etc.

Good replies so far. The only thing I'd suggest is that imitating the instrument is not nearly as important as fulfilling the role. You wouldn't put a "sax mute" into the bell of a trumpet to sound like a sax on Tenor Madness if you were a trumpet player, you'd simply carry the melody. Likewise, don't worry about sounding like an upright on the electric, worry about fulfilling the role.

That said, by far the closest sound anyone's ever gotten to an upright, a guy I've mentioned a few times on these forums, is Chris Brubeck, with a fretless Ric of all things. You can check it out on this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDWPJ604bW0. Strangely, I like that sound more than many uprights I've heard, yeah I know, I'm not an tr00 u83r 1337 kVlt jazz head.

[EADG mx]

Originally Posted by Jim Carr

Flats, playing over the 20th frets, fretless, adding a mute if you want, EQ, etc., ALL, IMHO don't do it.

My sincere suggestions:

1) Before you can get an upright sound, you need to honestly understand what it is. I suggest listening to Paul Chambers, Scott LaFaro, Ray Brown, and Charles Mingus a great deal, if you have not done so.

2) At the same time, own and learn to play a reasonably good double bass, n.b., pizz AND arco.

3) With a clear tone ideal now in mind, and solid idea of what the expressive world of the double bass is, then try the 20th fret pluck (or fretless), flats, mutes, EQ, etc. Realize that it FAILS.

4) Buy a bigger car and haul the upright kinowing there is no substitute, except maybe a Rob Allen with an ebony fingerboard. They come closest of all those I have heard or played. Not the same or very close, but closest.

I am serious.

+1. It's just like all of those guys in the Effects forum trying to make their bass sound like a guitar, keyboard, etc. It's just not going to happen.

Try the often-touted "fretless, foam mute, flatwounds" method (how many of those who advocate this formula have actually tried it? ), but remember that there's no substitute for the real thing.

[SteveC]

I respect Jim's post. Yes there is no sound like an upright. You can't duplicate it. I agree 100%. I mean no disrespect with th erest of my post, I am just stating a thought.

On the other hand, I think there are many people in the OP's position, myself included, who - for whatever reason - need/want/have to try and get an "uprightesque" sound with what they have. Telling them to buy a bigger car and haul around an upright isn't really going to help them.

The usual suggestions are good ones and will help the OP in his quest. I think one of the important things has been mentioned more than once - in Jim's post for sure - listening. If you don't know what Ray Brown sounds like, you'll never get that feel on ANY instrument. I also think being "aware" of technique can help.

I understand it won't be the same, but it's the best the OP and myself can do with what we have.

Hope that didn't piss anyone off.

[Tehrin Cole]

What's obvious to me is that,he has an idea of an "upright-ish"sound,if you will.you obviously have to listen to upright,in order to understand how it functions.If you can afford an upright,then,by all means,buy one!What we're talking about is,getting an "upright effect"from your electric bass,...and it can be done! While it's true that,you'll never get an electric to TRULY sound like an upright,you can,however,get it to respond like one,...it's all,....ALL up to the cat who's playing the instrument!Also,it doesn't matter whether you play fretted,or fretless,I prefer fretless because,it gives me more of that effect.The challenge is in,achieving this objective,....ARTISTRY! That's all it is. Peace.

[Afrokid]

you would think there would be a peddle or something by now to give us electric players an upright tone...

[SmokeyB]

The question comes up fairly often. It's not unreasonable to admire the sound of a URB and want some of that deep, woody thump from your electric. In fact, you can get a pretty satisfying sound too. It's not rocket science, but it takes some combination of instrument configuration and technique, as others have pointed out.

In fact, I got pretty much what Ithougt was a good upright tone and found that it wasn't really what I wanted after all.

I have a fretless hollowbody with a pickup hard against the neck and the 2nd not too close to the bridge. I strung it with the Rotosound 88's, tapwounds, [I experimented with several strings] pluck at or over the neck and tweaked the EQ. Some folks who could care less commented that it sounded like an upright. Woody thump, a abit of mwah, not a lot of sustain or top end. -- I've heard hollowbodies with a piezo that also give an incredibly woody sound.

But, I switched back to the LaBella Tapes for more top end, a tad more mwah and sustain and, frankly, more of that warm electric buzz that I missed when I had a more "upright tone".

Hearing Paul Chambers bass lines is one of the major reasons I took up bass. And without thinking twice I'd rattle off a list of URB players as my favorites and inspiration. But I love the soud of an electric. I love what it brings to the music and its unique qualities that I miss in the 'fump' of a URB.

I guess I'm just rattling on to say that approaching that sound in an electric is desirable with reasonable expectations on the part of the player and, I'd argue, is a better over-all goal when tempered with the best of your electric.

[Chris Cline]

I have a similar question to the OP, but slightly different. I love the sound of fretless electric, and the question for me is not quite how do I get my fretless jazz bass to sound like an upright, but rather once you've done the listening homework, understood the styles, what other PURELY MECHANICAL things (handplacement, amp settings, etc.) apart from those already mentioned are folks doing to get the growl and the drive when walking? To my ears, soloing is a different bag, and is the place that an electric should really sound different, whereas walking is where I miss not having that more complex sound.

Sorry if I'm hijacking the thread; I'll repost elsewhere if more appropriate.

[Tehrin Cole]

Please,....don't be sorry!What you're asking is,not only pertinent,but relevent to this conversation,....it speaks to the merits of the electric bass guitar!As I've previously stated,you'll never TRULY,get an electric bass to"sound"like an upright,...it's not supposed to.However,because of the electric bass' wide dynamic range,you can get it to respond,in this manner.Both Anthony Jackson,and Ron Carter,have had conversations,on this subject,and they both agree(as I do),that both instruments are viable in either setting(Jazz,Funk,Rock,...etc),it all comes down to the cat who's playing the instrument.Someone else on this post,made an excellent point,....if I may quote:"The object is not so much,trying to"sound"like an upright,as much as it is,fulfilling the role".As an artist,you may be called upon to do this,using only the one instrument,that you have.I hold this same sentiment for upright players,on the opposite side of the spectrum,which is something that James Genus talks about,...."getting an electric vibe from an upright".So once again,it all comes down to one word:ARTISTRY!That's the challenge! Peace.

[cnltb]

Mind you, I read somewhere that when asked;
"what do you think of electric bass as an instrument for jazz"
he replied
" I don't".
I am of course paraphrasing.